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Author Topic: Aptitudes are the real problem with the new skills system  (Read 5215 times)

speeder

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Re: Aptitudes are the real problem with the new skills system
« Reply #45 on: April 16, 2021, 06:03:31 PM »

Colonies can make way more money than you need without any skills. The colony skills are entirely unnecessary.

I think the idea that the player should get whatever they want is flawed. Having to make choices between different things that you want is a good thing, and makes for interesting decisions.

Also, I'm not sure about another dissipation/cap skill, we already have up to +20% to both stats from T4L and +10 vents/caps from T5L. You can make SO frigates with like 900+ dissipation. I like ranged specialization, I just think it needs a little buff, either increased damage, increased ranges where it is effective, or some utility buff like beam specific buffs.

At least for my playstyle I am not making ANY choice, at all.

I want colony skills, this means I will get all industry, no choices there at least.
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ubuntufreakdragon

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Re: Aptitudes are the real problem with the new skills system
« Reply #46 on: April 16, 2021, 06:34:36 PM »


I hope for a tiered system which offers more than 2 choices per tier and doesn't force a roll over to take a second tier 1.
Some tree like system, where you need to take at least x lower tier skills of which are y form the tier directly below and at least one skill needs to be a direct predecessor.
I want at least 40 skill points for some finer degree of choice.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2021, 07:05:56 AM by ubuntufreakdragon »
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Serenitis

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Re: Aptitudes are the real problem with the new skills system
« Reply #47 on: April 17, 2021, 02:39:06 AM »

At least for my playstyle I am not making ANY choice, at all.

I want colony skills, this means I will get all industry, no choices there at least.
Same.

It just doesn't matter what other 'choices' exist. If they are given in opposition to the thing I specifically want to do, then they will never get chosen.
And total number of potential choices I have to make will be lower.
This is why adding arbitrary 'choices' explicitly reduces the amount of choice in the game.
All it does is make one specific way of playing 'the one true way', and everything else is ignored at best.

If the player happens to like this particular way of playing, then of course they're not going to see any problems here. Nothing is getting in the way of what they want to do, and many things are rewarding them for playing 'the one true way'. ("I'm alright, I've got mine.")
If the player does not however, then they're not going to be very happy. There are many arbitrary and entirely manufactured blocks to overcome, if they can be overcome at all. And a general feeling of being 'punished' for daring to not like playing 'the one true way'.

And there's other questions...

If the skills were entirely open, what would be stopping the 'choice' players from just choosing the different things they want?
Why is allowing 'QoL' players to have fun less valuable than allowing the 'choice' players to have fun?
How does allowing 'QoL' players to pick thier favoured features (whatever they may be) in any way degrade the fun of the 'choice' player in a single player game with no interaction at all with other players?
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Megas

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Re: Aptitudes are the real problem with the new skills system
« Reply #48 on: April 17, 2021, 03:50:47 AM »

Colonies can make way more money than you need without any skills. The colony skills are entirely unnecessary.
Sounds like colony skills are underpowered, unless you are including alpha AI for unlimited colonies.

(Currently in my game, I have a fairly crappy planet seed, so I am still looking for a better place to put permanent colonies while not letting my temporary colonies grow too big to abandon.)

At least for my playstyle I am not making ANY choice, at all.

I want colony skills, this means I will get all industry, no choices there at least.
I cannot touch Ground Operations in Leadership because I do not want to lock my skills into officers.

While I like to get both Industry 5 skills, double-dipping Industry for that is too frivolous (four wasted points), and I am mulling over which of the two I would get.  Leaning toward Industrial Planning because it hurts less to respec away.  (If I get six colonies with Colony Management then respec away, I need Alpha cores to satisfy the lowered limits, and I have no alphas on hand in my game.)

That said, Industrial Planning looks real weak as a player skill, good only on a no item run.
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Sarissofoi

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Re: Aptitudes are the real problem with the new skills system
« Reply #49 on: April 17, 2021, 04:08:49 AM »

For me Industry is early game skills. Its pretty powerful in this regard but only valid early in leveling where making money is more important than power in combat.
Cheap travel, plenty of salvaged loot and fuel, free repairs and better salvaged ships.
After I get rich(which don't take  that long) and find place worthy colonisation i switch to my combat build which is Tech + Leadership. As I am bad on combat I leave combat alone.
Tbh some skills are completely useless for me(don't use phase ships for example).

intrinsic_parity

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Re: Aptitudes are the real problem with the new skills system
« Reply #50 on: April 17, 2021, 08:28:47 AM »

Colonies can make way more money than you need without any skills. The colony skills are entirely unnecessary.
Sounds like colony skills are underpowered, unless you are including alpha AI for unlimited colonies.

(Currently in my game, I have a fairly crappy planet seed, so I am still looking for a better place to put permanent colonies while not letting my temporary colonies grow too big to abandon.)
It's more that colonies make a ton of money. They definitely make more with skills, but there's just no need for that much money in vanilla. It also helps that admins will give you skills on half your colonies at minimum, and Cores can give you fulls skills as admins or just major income boosts in industries/structures.
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Ad Astra

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Re: Aptitudes are the real problem with the new skills system
« Reply #51 on: April 17, 2021, 11:43:41 AM »

There are many arbitrary and entirely manufactured blocks to overcome, if they can be overcome at all. And a general feeling of being 'punished' for daring to not like playing 'the one true way'.

This is very real, I can see there's some kind of intention to make the player be torn between a choice and another, but those choices are not the ones that should be.

You want a player to mull over what kind of playthrough they are going for, what will they be specializing in, not "cheaper supplies or cheaper fuel?" WHAT? WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN? How do you justify that being a "this or this" kind of choice? I want to make a cost-efficient fleet, ok just buy something to do with broken ships, some colony skills over there and some salvage skills AGAIN aaaand there you go, cheaper fuel AND supplies. Woooow! Yeah, nope.

There's a reason why skill trees are trees, branches, options, specialization or diversification. Choices ascend in power as investments are made, choices ascend in specialization as choices are made, they ascend in "coolness" and flavor as commitment to a certain build is solidified.
When you look at a tree you want to think "where do I want to be by the time I rise to the max level" As it is right now I constantly ignore free skill points I have cause "meh". I don't have an awesome top tier skill I'm seriously looking forward to get.
As it stands, only tech tree T5 skills are what the "crown jewel" of a skill tree should be, a more traditional skill tree with more nodes can be built instead of piling up bonuses one next to another, and they can be properly explained below, right now explanations are probably confusing for new players, there's just too much stuff going on.
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