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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: 77 % enemy ecm  (Read 3958 times)

Maethendias

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77 % enemy ecm
« on: April 10, 2021, 02:01:15 AM »

i just... what

officer spam has gone TOO FAR holy crap
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Lucky33

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Re: 77 % enemy ecm
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2021, 02:11:42 AM »

So what?

Your 8 officered frigates could provide 80%. Throw in some other ships and you got 20% range advantage for yourself.
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Mordodrukow

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Re: 77 % enemy ecm
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2021, 02:16:49 AM »

It's like putting in a speed limit instead of fixing the broken road.

Yes, you can deal with 77% enemy ECM. It doesnt mean that it is OK.
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TaLaR

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Re: 77 % enemy ecm
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2021, 02:18:05 AM »

So what?

Your 8 officered frigates could provide 80%. Throw in some other ships and you got 20% range advantage for yourself.

And leave you without larger officer-ed ships to actually exploit the advantage gained. Player can only go so high on ECM while maintaining meaningful fleet composition and without bleeding SP on merc maintenance.
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Maethendias

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Re: 77 % enemy ecm
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2021, 02:21:20 AM »

So what?

Your 8 officered frigates could provide 80%. Throw in some other ships and you got 20% range advantage for yourself.

my dude, using frigates AT ALL when fighting big redacted fleets is like, the WORST thing you can do

you are gonna be out of crew after like, 5 fights

not to mention, i dont WANT to waste skillpoints AND shipslots... just so i dont get fcked by officerspam for no reason
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Lucky33

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Re: 77 % enemy ecm
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2021, 02:31:17 AM »

I run backline missile barge variants of Apogees and Atlases mk2. They were pretty capable of exploiting up to now. Without officers. Mostly because Missile Specialization is a joke and these ships do nothing but launch missiles (and carry nav and ecm stuff).
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Lucky33

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Re: 77 % enemy ecm
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2021, 02:34:18 AM »

So what?

Your 8 officered frigates could provide 80%. Throw in some other ships and you got 20% range advantage for yourself.

my dude, using frigates AT ALL when fighting big redacted fleets is like, the WORST thing you can do

you are gonna be out of crew after like, 5 fights

not to mention, i dont WANT to waste skillpoints AND shipslots... just so i dont get fcked by officerspam for no reason

Big redacted fleet are exceptionally vulnerable to frigates. Because number of shipslots is limited and fleet generator has to sacrifice its own frigates for the larger ships. And I do not really care about those.
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Volfgarix

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Re: 77 % enemy ecm
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2021, 04:17:19 AM »

Let's just delete ECM from skills/officers and make the hullmod relevant.
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Thaago

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Re: 77 % enemy ecm
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2021, 10:31:41 AM »

@Maethendias, please respect the profanity filter.

WRT ECM: Alex is aware, its going down some next version. This version, if the player wants to contest it against remnants they have a few options. Gunnery Officered Frigates give 8% each (which do extremely well against remnants/endgame fleets. Even unled frigates do well against remnants as long as they have some speed (unstable injector, nav bonus). The player gets the choice of Automated Ships, which could either be a super battleship or a pile of Gunnery+EWM frigates for the ECM, or an extra hullmod from special modifications: ECM can be built in, bringing gunnery frigates to 10% and giving other ships decent bonuses.

Its not really ideal to be spending so many story points on ECM... but its not impossible either, and a 20% range penalty to the enemy makes those fights a LOT easier.
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Demetrious

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Re: 77 % enemy ecm
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2021, 01:42:42 PM »

Going through the changelog again, I found the note mentioning that DP balance between fleets is now based (mostly) on the number of officers in each fleet. And since the AI gets roughly twice the number you do for any serious fleet, that means it automagically also gets a 60-40 imbalance in DP in its favor - and of course, most of those ships have officers in them - and of course, that means the AI probably gets a big ECM bonus because it's so based on hulls deployed.

Everything snowballs off the officer disparity.

... why? Why would... why?
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Thaago

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Re: 77 % enemy ecm
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2021, 01:45:31 PM »

Its for endgame difficulty. The player gets so many ways to boost their fleet effectiveness that having equal odds would be too easy. At present, capturing points leads to equal ship numbers on both sides in endgame fights. The ECM is overtweaked, but changes incoming, both to max negative a player can get and to the raw values that the AI gets.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: 77 % enemy ecm
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2021, 02:11:46 PM »

I forget, does the point capping system let you get more deployment points beyond the initial 60% if you have the advantage?
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: 77 % enemy ecm
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2021, 02:18:49 PM »

I forget, does the point capping system let you get more deployment points beyond the initial 60% if you have the advantage?

No it does not.  Largest battle possible is 240 vs 240 assuming a 400 battle size.  Capture points are purely there to balance the fleets, not unbalance them.  You can't end up in a 160 vs 320 situation for example.
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Demetrious

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Re: 77 % enemy ecm
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2021, 10:56:43 PM »

Its for endgame difficulty. The player gets so many ways to boost their fleet effectiveness that having equal odds would be too easy. At present, capturing points leads to equal ship numbers on both sides in endgame fights. The ECM is overtweaked, but changes incoming, both to max negative a player can get and to the raw values that the AI gets.

"So many ways?" Please explain, because I've tried them. And by "tried" I mean "used the console mod to give myself as much of anything I could possibly want," and liberal use of s-mods, and I just cannot overcome a 60-40 force disparity AND an ECM penalty AND being out-officered 2-1. Unless I'm supposed to somehow use s-mods and have story points left over to retain an awful lot of merc officers, or something.

And I'm not talking about hard bounty fleets, either. Not looking forward to founding a colony at this point because I've got no idea how I'm going to deal with patrol fleets in Pather base systems.

The people who think this is fine... whatever they're doing is very different from what I've always done in Starsector. If I'm doing something wrong I can't guess it for the life of me.

EDIT: I'm 100% serious by the way. I'd be curious to know what kind of late-game fleet comps people run. The only solution I've been able to think of is prioritizing high tech ships that can quickly concentrate force at one point to delete ships fast, then disengage to vent.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2021, 11:35:27 PM by Demetrious »
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TaLaR

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Re: 77 % enemy ecm
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2021, 11:52:05 PM »

I'm 100% serious by the way. I'd be curious to know what kind of late-game fleet comps people run.

Player-piloted phase ships or unkillable Derelict Contingent fleet can break the game in your favor, but otherwise I don't see a stable solution.
Playing field is too stacked vs player. You can kinda level it by using multiple mercs, but doing this just feels bad, because you waste so many SP on mere maintenance.
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