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Author Topic: Final Impressions of 9.5 (Spoilers)  (Read 3960 times)

Amoebka

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Re: Final Impressions of 9.5 (Spoilers)
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2021, 07:14:36 AM »

Odyssey is alright. I use Odyssey+Radiant for my lategame currently. And I would imagine if Odyssey is good, so is Conquest.

Onslaught did win me both omega fights and the alpha site, but I wouldn't take it against remnants, that much is true.
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Arakasi

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Re: Final Impressions of 9.5 (Spoilers)
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2021, 07:18:34 AM »

Odyssey is alright. I use Odyssey+Radiant for my lategame currently. And I would imagine if Odyssey is good, so is Conquest.

Onslaught did win me both omega fights and the alpha site, but I wouldn't take it against remnants, that much is true.

I really did try the Odyssey. Even put unstable injectors on it to try to allow it to flee remnants, but it would still just end up being caught with its pants down and dying to the central swarm. Against doritos and the alpha site capital spam is still a tried and true strategy, but I don't really class them as endgame fleets so much as atypical encounters.
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Amoebka

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Re: Final Impressions of 9.5 (Spoilers)
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2021, 07:21:04 AM »

I mean flagship Odyssey, of course. With Systems Expertise kiting is easier than ever.
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Arakasi

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Re: Final Impressions of 9.5 (Spoilers)
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2021, 07:25:40 AM »

I mean flagship Odyssey, of course. With Systems Expertise kiting is easier than ever.

Ah. Yeah that would probably have to be the way you do it, though I found I was spending my whole time in the tactical view so that I could best manage my fleet to get the necessary picks before CR started to run out.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Final Impressions of 9.5 (Spoilers)
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2021, 07:25:57 AM »

I use capitals (paragons, conquests and onslaughts) effectively against late game fleets (multi radiant ordos), so I don't think your analysis on that front is inaccurate. I didn't have the automated ship skill so maybe a radiant would be better, but 3x built in hullmod capitals do fine IMO. I found that slower cruisers were the least useful, because they aren't fast enough to run away from reckless remnants and are too squishy to survive even relatively even fights with remnant ships. My strategy was to have a bunch of frigates harassing on the flanks, ~2 capitals killing stuff and some doom/auroras keeping things spread out and also killing stuff. It works fine.

Also I saw Alex say he is planning on increasing some of the DP thresholds for skills to 240, so I don't think he's super set on 180 as 'intended'. I do agree that maybe adding a minimum would be good so you can't just drop it super low and solo stuff with zigg.
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Megas

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Re: Final Impressions of 9.5 (Spoilers)
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2021, 07:31:37 AM »

I like to use Paragon, but I noticed it is more vulnerable than before late in the game.  (it still mauls things good, but it does not feel invincible like it used to.)  Its biggest weakness is 60 DP.  About half the time, I pilot Harbinger instead and leave the Paragon to AI, or just not deploy it.  Radiant is sick and gets deployed in almost every fight, but I am not sure Radiant is worth giving up Spec.Mods for it.  (I got Automated Ships mostly because it is not permanent like Spec.Mods., plus Red Planet was the easiest way to get my first capital for the fleet in my game.)
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Arakasi

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Re: Final Impressions of 9.5 (Spoilers)
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2021, 07:34:27 AM »

I use capitals (paragons, conquests and onslaughts) effectively against late game fleets (multi radiant ordos), so I don't think your analysis on that front is inaccurate. I didn't have the automated ship skill so maybe a radiant would be better, but 3x built in hullmod capitals do fine IMO. I found that slower cruisers were the least useful, because they aren't fast enough to run away from reckless remnants and are too squishy to survive even relatively even fights with remnant ships. My strategy was to have a bunch of frigates harassing on the flanks, ~2 capitals killing stuff and some doom/auroras keeping things spread out and also killing stuff. It works fine.

Does this still function against the 4x Radiant full alpha core bounty, and how necessary are the Dooms to this strat? I did mention that I think phase is the best category of regular ship in this patch, probably does the best possible job at poking at the sides of the remnant mass. I dunno, maybe it becomes a lot different when you get the 3x built in mods for the capitals, but I found that I couldn't make them work with zero story points invested whereas I could make the fleet I posted work with zero story points (which subsequently lead to me investing in that specific fleet setup).
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Final Impressions of 9.5 (Spoilers)
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2021, 07:44:28 AM »

I have one doom that I don't always deploy, so not that important. It dies sometime because it likes to unphase near its own mines and eat tac lances and plasma canons. I've only seen 3 radiant fleets so far, and mostly fought 2 radiant fleets, so I haven't gone as far into end game as you apparently, but I sort of lost interest at that point and started a new game.

Edit:
I think maybe more dooms could be similar too, or better than conquest/onslaught, but they definitely aren't that good without officers with the elite phase skill, and I didn't feel like trying to get more of those.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2021, 07:56:34 AM by intrinsic_parity »
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Ryan390

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Re: Final Impressions of 9.5 (Spoilers)
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2021, 09:22:58 AM »

Thanks for the reply Arakasi, I'll try to answer any question's you raised as best as I can..

Disagree on that part, I thought the story was far to textual and wasn't a fan of the writing either. It seemed completely detached from the game's mechanics for the most part. Also you mention rewards, but from my understanding there's only one actual reward you get? It's mostly just flying from point A to B, only to talk to someone then fly back to point A.
I thought the alpha site mission was really cool but it was the only part that I felt any suspense or real excitement. It felt like a chore to me to do endless reading about characters I had no emotional attachment too, to progress a storyline that I already knew was coming.

It felt purposely dragged out and very laborious personally. happy to be the minority here who thinks that.

I don't know how it could be anything much other than textual, it's sort of the old school of RPG writing which I really appreciate. Big blocks of text to sink my teeth into that get me more into the world and the characters. But I can understand why that wouldn't be someone's cup of tea. Not having an attachment to the characters I understand, but I don't think you're meant to in this moment, they're just the people providing your pay check and you interact with them in a way that displays that for the most part. And I dunno, I was pretty freaked out when I started to see Tri-Tach death squads with full story point investment. But then again I couldn't see what was coming, I'm curious what you mean by the remark that you 'I already knew was coming'.




I guess if you're a fan of that, then it makes sense you enjoy it. My counter would be that Star Sector is a very visual game.
There's ships to interact with, going about their business. Planets to trade and land on, colonies to build. Sectors to explore and strange artefacts to discover.
It's a very visual and interactive game, it always has been even from early builds.

Yet the story narrative is focused around the player being forced into a set role with reading and flying from A -> B talking to other characters and delivering stuff. The amount of interactions the story physically causes the player to do, is very little.
For such a visual and interactive game I think it wouldn't be misplaced to try and focus the story more around real time experiences and interactions, rather than just being 'docked' and reading text from the 'Provost' or other characters who we have no attachment to or interest in.

What would of made it instantly better, or cool might of been the alternate text responses, based on the status / wealth / power differences of the player. Would the Provost really speak in such a way to a captain with 10 Paragons and a huge Galactic empire? Yet a captain with a single frigate and not a penny to his name will get the same dialog.
Yet changing that, for me isn't the 'full fix', that would just be a cool patch over the real issue. Which seems to be the story feels detached from the main game's mechanics, I'd like more physical interaction with the SS world and let the narrative speak more from what we see and do, rather than what we purely read.
The reading shouldn't be the sole focus, it should be 'filling the gaps' so to speak..  Does that make sense?

A text based adventure is good for....a text based adventure game. Star Sector is ridiculously visual and interactive. Yet when the text element of the game becomes one of the primary focus', then your inviting a problem here and a major disjointedness to the whole feel to the game.
What I'm trying to say here is I don't think Star Sector is a text based adventure, I could be wrong, it depends on Alex's vision, but weirdly why would it be pushed in that direction? It would be selling itself way, waaaay short in my opinion.
I feel it'd be a bit like taking a diamond and sticking it into an old wooden box, then labelling it 'Hello, there's a diamond in here'.

Well no... why don't you do away with that box as the diamond speaks for itself. Let it out of the box, so to speak. Bad analogy maybe but I'm struggling to explain succinctly..
Don't explain it with text, just physically show it and not hide behind a box?

In terms of how did I know it was coming, it was pretty clear to me that the whole story ark (at least this far) is based around opening the Gates. It just felt like a very mundane and overly drawn out process. I had a pretty strong idea since before last year it was the next big thing to happen in our beloved sector. So it was no surprise to me how this latest story unfolded, unfortunately.
The Alpha site was enjoyable and I thought things were starting to look up.

Why was it enjoyable? Because it was different to reading text, it was interactive, exciting, scary, the music changed into the most ominous sound I think I've ever heard. I was literally like "Wow Wtf"
The red warning beacon was a nice touch.. I knew something big was going to happen and boy I don't think there'd be a single disappointed player with that scene. 

Keep that sort of thing up, yet I know it's hard.. Why? Because it's more work and dev time, than it is writing blocks of texts for fictional characters no one cares about. That's what's going to make the difference between a good game and one of the best 2d spacers ever to exist.
Then what happened after Alpha site? After such a crazy, amazing scene it's back to delivery runs from A -> B another complete change of pace.. The provost was barely even bothered that we just went toe-toe with a potential unknown alien race. The reaction seemed completely underwhelming, none of the other 'characters' seemed to really care?

Some of the writing has that feel to it of a Hollywood actor who's 'got that big break' and overcompensates by over-acting. There's too many occasions of over verbosity, but this is approaching strong preferences territory. Some of it is great, more around ships, planets and station description, rather than character dialog IMO.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2021, 10:12:24 AM by Ryan390 »
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Arakasi

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Re: Final Impressions of 9.5 (Spoilers)
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2021, 12:39:42 AM »

Yet the story narrative is focused around the player being forced into a set role with reading and flying from A -> B talking to other characters and delivering stuff. The amount of interactions the story physically causes the player to do, is very little.
For such a visual and interactive game I think it wouldn't be misplaced to try and focus the story more around real time experiences and interactions, rather than just being 'docked' and reading text from the 'Provost' or other characters who we have no attachment to or interest in.

I understand the rest of your criticism, although I disagree, as someone who really enjoyed The Culture novels I really got that sort of vibe. But this part I'm not sure about, the quests give you options, you can talk or explore on one, you can fight your way through the various fleets trying to intercept you, you can use stealth to avoid them (I think?), you can run away for sure, you can talk through certain interactions using story points (or not!), you can raid to avoid doing someone's bidding, you get to encounter strange things, *** off the powers that be, activate ancient technologies for your own use, etc. I feel it's rather reductive to describe all this stuff as merely going from A>B and talking to characters and delivering stuff, you could argue a lot of the side-quests involve this, but that's what I'd expect from an economy game like this.
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Ryan390

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Re: Final Impressions of 9.5 (Spoilers)
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2021, 02:06:26 AM »

Yet the story narrative is focused around the player being forced into a set role with reading and flying from A -> B talking to other characters and delivering stuff. The amount of interactions the story physically causes the player to do, is very little.
For such a visual and interactive game I think it wouldn't be misplaced to try and focus the story more around real time experiences and interactions, rather than just being 'docked' and reading text from the 'Provost' or other characters who we have no attachment to or interest in.

I understand the rest of your criticism, although I disagree, as someone who really enjoyed The Culture novels I really got that sort of vibe. But this part I'm not sure about, the quests give you options, you can talk or explore on one, you can fight your way through the various fleets trying to intercept you, you can use stealth to avoid them (I think?), you can run away for sure, you can talk through certain interactions using story points (or not!), you can raid to avoid doing someone's bidding, you get to encounter strange things, *** off the powers that be, activate ancient technologies for your own use, etc. I feel it's rather reductive to describe all this stuff as merely going from A>B and talking to characters and delivering stuff, you could argue a lot of the side-quests involve this, but that's what I'd expect from an economy game like this.

We won't ever agree then as for me, Star Sector is not a text based adventure game. I do feel there could of been more interactions in the real-time of space, rather than static reams of dialog based on characters that most players don't really care much about.
It's fine to have some of that stuff, as I mentioned earlier. This can fill the gaps, but I wouldn't make it the main focus.

Does all meaningful text interactions need to be when docked? Couldn't it be that important characters are met and talked to while in space, in system? There's already a mechanic for talking to other fleets, but they never have anything to say unless it's a scripted encounter.
I don't think it would be too difficult to incorporate some of the story telling into a more real time setting, while you're actually flying around? Even that would help reduce the disjointedness from the story narrative to the core game mechanics, which you didn't really mention but I did in length.

The encounter with the other fleets is purely cosmetic, as they just want to fight, again there just one off occurrences that are scripted but don't feed back to the main story line in any way. You either fight or run or maybe your burn rate is so fast you didn't even notice it? I flew past a couple of them as most of my ships have augmented drive field?
No one's expecting Witcher 3 level of story telling here, but I do feel strongly that the current trajectory can be altered and improved and made more engaging. Is it perfect right now? Of course not..

If we don't challenge and strive to improve how can a product become better? 
 

 
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Arakasi

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Re: Final Impressions of 9.5 (Spoilers)
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2021, 02:13:08 AM »

If we don't challenge and strive to improve how can a product become better?

Don't get me wrong, this thread exists for that precise purpose, but I simply disagree that the story isn't engaging. You're right - we've reached an impasse.
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Ryan390

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Re: Final Impressions of 9.5 (Spoilers)
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2021, 02:23:53 AM »

If we don't challenge and strive to improve how can a product become better?

Don't get me wrong, this thread exists for that precise purpose, but I simply disagree that the story isn't engaging. You're right - we've reached an impasse.

Exactly, share some of your suggestions of how you might feel it can be improved? Or do you think it's perfect already? Your replies seem to be more on the defensive footing rather than providing concrete counters or counter suggestions to some of the ideas put forward.
What would you like to see more of? What would you like included?

It's fine to disagree on the overall direction of the narrative. There's plenty of ideas I could make that would be achievable for an instant improvement to the overall engagement of the story.
What made FF7 one of the best RPG's of all time was it's story and characters and music. Characters didn't have loads to say from a dialog perspective, actually very little.

It's the overall context and visual and audible combinations that make a title a true masterpiece. The last 3 decades in the industry have shown that, it's not all about graphics and polish but gameplay and story.
Action speak louder than words, very true in this case.. That's why the Alpha site was easily the best part of the whole new 'story' block.
How many text heavy games can you think of that have been in the greatest of all time list?

This game has a very strong chance to be in that top list, should the story and emotion tie in with the rest of the games quality..

« Last Edit: April 11, 2021, 02:29:29 AM by Ryan390 »
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Arakasi

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Re: Final Impressions of 9.5 (Spoilers)
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2021, 02:37:57 AM »

Exactly, share some of your suggestions of how you might feel it can be improved? Or do you think it's perfect already? Your replies seem to be more on the defensive footing rather than providing concrete counters or counter suggestions to some of the ideas put forward.
What would you like to see more of? What would you like included?
I did exactly that at the start of the thread. Had a few issues but other than that found if very satisfying. Wouldn't want to see anything more than their creative vision fulfilled.

How many text heavy games can you think of that have been in the greatest of all time list?

This game has a very strong chance to be in that top list, should the story and emotion tie in with the rest of the games quality..

I don't believe in a 'greatest of all time list'. My favourite games are Geneforge 1 and 2, a set of games, not unlike this one, developed by a 1-man team, whose story consists largely of big blocks of text delivered by characters. I don't know what to tell you, I like books and can get everything you can get from a more cinematic experience from a mere set of words on paper.
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Ryan390

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Re: Final Impressions of 9.5 (Spoilers)
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2021, 03:00:23 AM »

Exactly, share some of your suggestions of how you might feel it can be improved? Or do you think it's perfect already? Your replies seem to be more on the defensive footing rather than providing concrete counters or counter suggestions to some of the ideas put forward.
What would you like to see more of? What would you like included?
I did exactly that at the start of the thread. Had a few issues but other than that found if very satisfying. Wouldn't want to see anything more than their creative vision fulfilled.

How many text heavy games can you think of that have been in the greatest of all time list?

This game has a very strong chance to be in that top list, should the story and emotion tie in with the rest of the games quality..

I don't believe in a 'greatest of all time list'. My favourite games are Geneforge 1 and 2, a set of games, not unlike this one, developed by a 1-man team, whose story consists largely of big blocks of text delivered by characters. I don't know what to tell you, I like books and can get everything you can get from a more cinematic experience from a mere set of words on paper.


I do believe in that list as I've seen it from the days of the Amiga, Commodore 600 (back in 1987, till now) The Gene forge game you're referring to do you mean the games by Spiderweb Software? 
If so I've played them myself and was a big fan of the Avernum series (especially the first one) - Again it's a good example of where text really fits that game style really well. I just don't feel Star Sector is anywhere in that same ball park.

The Avernum games and other recent titles from them have always been quite static / still. Everything moves on a tick so movement is turn based and the combat is turn based.
So textual references and heavy description is essential here and it fits perfectly. Star sector is very active and fluid and visual, so trying to fit that square shape concept into a circular hole just seems off to me.

Pretty sure Spiderweb isn't a one man team either. It was originally founded by Jeff Vogel but I'm pretty sure there's a few people behind the company now?


Side Note: Hey Arakasi you might enjoy these games if you've already not played them:
- Baldurs Gate 2
- Planescape Tourment

I'd heavily suggest a try, BG2 is one of my favourite games of all time and it has the style you'd be interested in I think.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2021, 03:13:44 AM by Ryan390 »
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