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Author Topic: Let's talk about xiv ships  (Read 11982 times)

Maethendias

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Re: Let's talk about xiv ships
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2021, 01:50:38 PM »

the battlegroup 14 onslaught is still an onslaught

the battlegroup 14 legion however

THAT is acutally a scary beast

because it can do anything, at the same time, long range shield damage, 4 xyphons for pd and pressure, locus for crushing frigates and screening, hurricanes for big oomph, its tanky, it got op, and its suprisingly mobile enough to be an enjoyable flagship (unlike paragon)
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sicksock

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Re: Let's talk about xiv ships
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2021, 08:10:10 PM »

XIV is a lot worse in 0.95 due to speed being king. Changes to the AI mean ships are much better at avoiding combat when pressured on flux meaning your extra slow heavies provide neither protection nor pressure to enemy fleets. Not to mention their inability to maneuver makes them food for faster ships who can easily out maneuver and bully the flying bricks while picking apart your fleet.

Overall they've gone from situationally useful to bad in most situations, even versus stations they tend to under preform vs ships which can duck out and vent.
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Thaago

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Re: Let's talk about xiv ships
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2021, 08:30:40 PM »

The speed penalties are really small... on a Dominator or Onslaught for example its only 2 speed I think. Thats not significant enough to matter except for fighting ships of the exact same speed over very long duels.
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Voyager I

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Re: Let's talk about xiv ships
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2021, 08:46:14 PM »

Have y'all looked at the math on how armor works?  The way it diminishes incoming damage based on its current value gives it a compounding effect such that each point of armor gets better as you stack them up, meaning that the XIV bonuses are a significant boon to the durability of the ships it comes on.

Also, being real frank here, pretending that a minute speed debuff is going to meaningfully change the way a brick like the Onslaught or the Dominator functions on the battlefield is laughable.  Why is your whole shtick finding the most inane parts of the game to complain about?  We're on a brand-new version with tons of glaring balance problems to harp on and you're making threads about this?
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Retry

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Re: Let's talk about xiv ships
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2021, 09:09:10 PM »

What people didn't realize here is that the 7% debuff isn't only on speed but on manoeuvrability too! Literally the 2 most important stats in the game imo currently.
"People" realize it, it's just not nearly as important as you think it is.

Speed is pretty important, but it's important in the aggregate.  75 speed makes for a fast cruiser.  -7% speed results in 69.75 speed, which still makes for a fast cruiser.  There are almost no situations

Maneuverability isn't all that important for the majority of warships.  Most ships, even the sloggier ones, have enough maneuverability to be useful already, Helmsmanship is already a critical skill to have for most officer'd ships for the 0-flux elite bonus, and it comes with a ton of maneuverability and a bit of speed as a small bonus.  If maneuverability were all that important, Auxiliary Thrusters would be mandatory on most ships, and Heavy Armor wouldn't be the most popular use of built-in story points despite their -10% maneuverability hit.
Quote
The enforcer, with SO, can barely reach 80 top speed!
This is just a blatant lie.  Base Enforcer has 60 speed, +30 base for SO, +50 for zero-flux boost always being on for 140 top speed in-combat (almost double your claimed speed).  This is further upgradable, +20 more for Unstable Injector if you want it, +10% for a Helmsmanship officer, +25 flat to zero-flux boost with Wolfpack, up to +20% from Navigation boosts...
Quote
7% extra capacitors and flux are extremely negligible in a fight.  Especially for anything smaller than a capital.
Flux is the life-blood of the vast majority of warships, small changes to flux dissipation or weapon flux consumption can make or break a ship.  Unless you happen to be a dedicated carrier or missile boat, you cannot fight without flux.

The cap bonus basically translates into a few extra OP-worth of shield HP, and even 4% extra dissipation makes builds run notably more smoothly.
Quote
Also 100 armor is negligible too...
...No.
Quote
You slap heavy armor on an enforcer (the debuff from heavy armor stacks with the xiv hullmod debuff) and it will start turning like a dominator lol.
...Also no.
And now you have me digging through the files...

Maneuverability specs of the Enforcer are 40/20/30/20 acceleration/deceleration/turn rate/turn acceleration

Maneuverability specs of the Dominator are 20/10/12/12.  In almost every case half that of the Enforcer.  That -10% maneuverability malus from Heavy Armor is not going to be anywhere close to turning the Enforcer's maneuverability to Dominator-levels.
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Warnoise

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Re: Let's talk about xiv ships
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2021, 05:31:48 AM »

Spoiler
What people didn't realize here is that the 7% debuff isn't only on speed but on manoeuvrability too! Literally the 2 most important stats in the game imo currently.
"People" realize it, it's just not nearly as important as you think it is.

Speed is pretty important, but it's important in the aggregate.  75 speed makes for a fast cruiser.  -7% speed results in 69.75 speed, which still makes for a fast cruiser.  There are almost no situations

Maneuverability isn't all that important for the majority of warships.  Most ships, even the sloggier ones, have enough maneuverability to be useful already, Helmsmanship is already a critical skill to have for most officer'd ships for the 0-flux elite bonus, and it comes with a ton of maneuverability and a bit of speed as a small bonus.  If maneuverability were all that important, Auxiliary Thrusters would be mandatory on most ships, and Heavy Armor wouldn't be the most popular use of built-in story points despite their -10% maneuverability hit.
Quote
The enforcer, with SO, can barely reach 80 top speed!
This is just a blatant lie.  Base Enforcer has 60 speed, +30 base for SO, +50 for zero-flux boost always being on for 140 top speed in-combat (almost double your claimed speed).  This is further upgradable, +20 more for Unstable Injector if you want it, +10% for a Helmsmanship officer, +25 flat to zero-flux boost with Wolfpack, up to +20% from Navigation boosts...

The cap bonus basically translates into a few extra OP-worth of shield HP, and even 4% extra dissipation makes builds run notably more smoothly.
Quote
Also 100 armor is negligible too...
...No.
Quote
You slap heavy armor on an enforcer (the debuff from heavy armor stacks with the xiv hullmod debuff) and it will start turning like a dominator lol.
...Also no.
And now you have me digging through the files...

Maneuverability specs of the Enforcer are 40/20/30/20 acceleration/deceleration/turn rate/turn acceleration

Maneuverability specs of the Dominator are 20/10/12/12.  In almost every case half that of the Enforcer.  That -10% maneuverability malus from Heavy Armor is not going to be anywhere close to turning the Enforcer's maneuverability to Dominator-levels.
[close]

First of all, you gotta chill. I don't know why you got all gungho in your post, but remember this is a video game so let's not get serious here, now that being said...

 >"People" realize it, it's just not nearly as important as you think it is.

Speed is pretty important, but it's important in the aggregate.  75 speed makes for a fast cruiser.  -7% speed results in 69.75 speed, which still makes for a fast cruiser.  There are almost no situations

Maneuverability isn't all that important for the majority of warships.  Most ships, even the sloggier ones, have enough maneuverability to be useful already, Helmsmanship is already a critical skill to have for most officer'd ships for the 0-flux elite bonus, and it comes with a ton of maneuverability and a bit of speed as a small bonus.  If maneuverability were all that important, Auxiliary Thrusters would be mandatory on most ships, and Heavy Armor wouldn't be the most popular use of built-in story points despite their -10% maneuverability hit.


In a game where the AI are specifically programmed to flank you and to avoid your main line of fire, yeah, maneuverability is as important as i think especially on ships that rely on hardpoints to deal damage. Most people go with an even better solution against maneuverability: ships with omnishield and fast/maneuverable ships.

This is just a blatant lie.  Base Enforcer has 60 speed, +30 base for SO, +50 for zero-flux boost always being on for 140 top speed in-combat (almost double your claimed speed).  This is further upgradable, +20 more for Unstable Injector if you want it, +10% for a Helmsmanship officer, +25 flat to zero-flux boost with Wolfpack, up to +20% from Navigation boosts...

Before accusing people of lying, maybe you should make things clear first...  https://ibb.co/y6RnXj7

...No.

...Yes. Withstanding one extra plasma cannon shot doesnt magically make it worth it.

..Also no.
And now you have me digging through the files...

Maneuverability specs of the Enforcer are 40/20/30/20 acceleration/deceleration/turn rate/turn acceleration

Maneuverability specs of the Dominator are 20/10/12/12.  In almost every case half that of the Enforcer.  That -10% maneuverability malus from Heavy Armor is not going to be anywhere close to turning the Enforcer's maneuverability to Dominator-levels.


It was a hyperbole. When someone tells you "He is slow like a turtle" do you say "umm, actually according to scientific data he is still faster than turtle"?

But since you went through all that trouble of digging out numbers to respond to my hyperbole, for the sake of argument let's say the enforcer is 40/20/30/20, reduce that by 7% from the xiv hullmod, add in the 10% from heavy armor, you get
33/16.5/25/16.5. I can safely say that there are some cruisers that are more maneuverable than that.
Thats pretty low for a destroyer. Especially when it has a weak shield and worthless ship system. In a real battle (against remnants or big bounties) that extra 300 armor wont do *** when you are easily surrounded and get sprayed by pulse autocannons and other big boy guns.

The cap bonus basically translates into a few extra OP-worth of shield HP, and even 4% extra dissipation makes builds run notably more smoothly.

Umm no. Numbers sound nice but in a battle an extra 4% has a negligible advantage. You will still exactly have the same build as a normal enforcer but with slightly better flux stats (but slower and less maneuverable)
« Last Edit: April 11, 2021, 05:48:14 AM by Warnoise »
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Retry

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Re: Let's talk about xiv ships
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2021, 09:22:29 AM »

First of all, you gotta chill. I don't know why you got all gungho in your post, but remember this is a video game so let's not get serious here, now that being said...
If a mild debunking of most of your points translates as "gung-ho" to you, well, ok, I guess.

Clearly this is not going to be a productive discussion, so I won't continue debating on most of these points, except for the one below which subtly implies that I'm being untruthful or clumsy with my testing.
Quote
This is just a blatant lie.  Base Enforcer has 60 speed, +30 base for SO, +50 for zero-flux boost always being on for 140 top speed in-combat (almost double your claimed speed).  This is further upgradable, +20 more for Unstable Injector if you want it, +10% for a Helmsmanship officer, +25 flat to zero-flux boost with Wolfpack, up to +20% from Navigation boosts...

Before accusing people of lying, maybe you should make things clear first...  https://ibb.co/y6RnXj7
I was very clear.

Let me repeat my claim, with some underlining for emphasis on parts that were apparently missed:
Base Enforcer has 60 speed, +30 base for SO, +50 for zero-flux boost always being on for 140 top speed in-combat (almost double your claimed speed).  This is further upgradable...

That shot's not using a base enforcer so we're already off to a poor start, but to be fair a mere 7% speed malus is not going to make a significant difference to the "spirit" of the claim.  So I'll quickly acquire an XIV Enforcer myself and test using that instead of my original claim.

More importantly, that screenshot doesn't capture the +50 zero-flux speed boost that is always on due to Safety Overrides, the critical component of the claim.

My own XIV Enforcer in the hanger, similar speed value to yours


Same XIV Enforcer on the field, please note the "speed" value in the bottom left corner.


While the speed boost isn't shown in the hanger, having a rudimentary understanding of the Safety Override hullmod, or simply taking minimal effort in actually testing the ship on the field, should have revealed that even a SO XIV enforcer not only has in-combat speeds far in excess of 80, but effortlessly breaches into the low 100's.
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ChaseBears

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Re: Let's talk about xiv ships
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2021, 09:35:09 AM »

The XIV Legion does have a substantially different turret layout basically making it a different ship.  I have a XIV legion with Hypervelocity drivers and Cyclones and a regular legion with Pilum spam, ECCM, and Gauss Cannons.  I do wish the XIV mod was a little better but frankly XIV is too easy to get off random black markets for it to be too 'elite'.

Would also be rad if there were rare Hegemony XIV battlegroups with tooled up officers and gear, like Lions Guard.
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If I were creating the world I wouldn’t mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o’clock, Day One!

Voyager I

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Re: Let's talk about xiv ships
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2021, 11:43:53 AM »

...having a rudimentary understanding of the Safety Override hullmod...

Funny you should mention that...
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HaruHaru

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Re: Let's talk about xiv ships
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2021, 01:21:10 PM »

I'd like to second giving Hegemony Lions Guard-like subfaction, going even as far as to make XIV ships unique to them, so you can't get the blueprints anymore. Legion XIV is good in part because it feels like (mostly) a unique find, giving same treatment to the rest of battlegroup ships will be nice, buffing them even more to reinforce that it's relics from actual Domain military won't seem too excessive then.
It will also make for great miniboss-like encounters, to show that now you really made hegemony take you seriously.
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Warnoise

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Re: Let's talk about xiv ships
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2021, 04:15:55 PM »

Spoiler
First of all, you gotta chill. I don't know why you got all gungho in your post, but remember this is a video game so let's not get serious here, now that being said...
If a mild debunking of most of your points translates as "gung-ho" to you, well, ok, I guess.

Clearly this is not going to be a productive discussion, so I won't continue debating on most of these points, except for the one below which subtly implies that I'm being untruthful or clumsy with my testing.
Quote
This is just a blatant lie.  Base Enforcer has 60 speed, +30 base for SO, +50 for zero-flux boost always being on for 140 top speed in-combat (almost double your claimed speed).  This is further upgradable, +20 more for Unstable Injector if you want it, +10% for a Helmsmanship officer, +25 flat to zero-flux boost with Wolfpack, up to +20% from Navigation boosts...

Before accusing people of lying, maybe you should make things clear first...  https://ibb.co/y6RnXj7
I was very clear.

Let me repeat my claim, with some underlining for emphasis on parts that were apparently missed:
Base Enforcer has 60 speed, +30 base for SO, +50 for zero-flux boost always being on for 140 top speed in-combat (almost double your claimed speed).  This is further upgradable...

That shot's not using a base enforcer so we're already off to a poor start, but to be fair a mere 7% speed malus is not going to make a significant difference to the "spirit" of the claim.  So I'll quickly acquire an XIV Enforcer myself and test using that instead of my original claim.

More importantly, that screenshot doesn't capture the +50 zero-flux speed boost that is always on due to Safety Overrides, the critical component of the claim.

My own XIV Enforcer in the hanger, similar speed value to yours


Same XIV Enforcer on the field, please note the "speed" value in the bottom left corner.


While the speed boost isn't shown in the hanger, having a rudimentary understanding of the Safety Override hullmod, or simply taking minimal effort in actually testing the ship on the field, should have revealed that even a SO XIV enforcer not only has in-combat speeds far in excess of 80, but effortlessly breaches into the low 100's.
[close]

Why are you even talking about base enforcer when I was talking about xiv ships is beyond me.

And my point still stands, by "top speed reaching the 80's" I clearly meant the value displayed on the ship profile.

If you read carefully what is written in the screenshot, it is written: Top speed: 83

Going as far as accusing people of lying to win some sort e-peen measuring contest ruins the "constructive" discussion that apparently you were trying to have.




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Maethendias

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Re: Let's talk about xiv ships
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2021, 05:05:48 PM »

First of all, you gotta chill. I don't know why you got all gungho in your post, but remember this is a video game so let's not get serious here, now that being said...
If a mild debunking of most of your points translates as "gung-ho" to you, well, ok, I guess.

Clearly this is not going to be a productive discussion, so I won't continue debating on most of these points, except for the one below which subtly implies that I'm being untruthful or clumsy with my testing.
Quote
This is just a blatant lie.  Base Enforcer has 60 speed, +30 base for SO, +50 for zero-flux boost always being on for 140 top speed in-combat (almost double your claimed speed).  This is further upgradable, +20 more for Unstable Injector if you want it, +10% for a Helmsmanship officer, +25 flat to zero-flux boost with Wolfpack, up to +20% from Navigation boosts...

Before accusing people of lying, maybe you should make things clear first...  https://ibb.co/y6RnXj7
I was very clear.

Let me repeat my claim, with some underlining for emphasis on parts that were apparently missed:
Base Enforcer has 60 speed, +30 base for SO, +50 for zero-flux boost always being on for 140 top speed in-combat (almost double your claimed speed).  This is further upgradable...

That shot's not using a base enforcer so we're already off to a poor start, but to be fair a mere 7% speed malus is not going to make a significant difference to the "spirit" of the claim.  So I'll quickly acquire an XIV Enforcer myself and test using that instead of my original claim.

More importantly, that screenshot doesn't capture the +50 zero-flux speed boost that is always on due to Safety Overrides, the critical component of the claim.

My own XIV Enforcer in the hanger, similar speed value to yours


which mod is that "world eater plattform" from?
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Null Ganymede

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Re: Let's talk about xiv ships
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2021, 05:28:14 PM »

This is a lot of posting about a p. simple topic.

Flux is damage, damage is good. Taking hits on armor is flux not spent on shields, meaning more damage.

They all have burn drive and missile slots for Salamanders, whatchu need mobility for?
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Voyager I

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Re: Let's talk about xiv ships
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2021, 05:54:44 PM »

Spoiler
First of all, you gotta chill. I don't know why you got all gungho in your post, but remember this is a video game so let's not get serious here, now that being said...
If a mild debunking of most of your points translates as "gung-ho" to you, well, ok, I guess.

Clearly this is not going to be a productive discussion, so I won't continue debating on most of these points, except for the one below which subtly implies that I'm being untruthful or clumsy with my testing.
Quote
This is just a blatant lie.  Base Enforcer has 60 speed, +30 base for SO, +50 for zero-flux boost always being on for 140 top speed in-combat (almost double your claimed speed).  This is further upgradable, +20 more for Unstable Injector if you want it, +10% for a Helmsmanship officer, +25 flat to zero-flux boost with Wolfpack, up to +20% from Navigation boosts...

Before accusing people of lying, maybe you should make things clear first...  https://ibb.co/y6RnXj7
I was very clear.

Let me repeat my claim, with some underlining for emphasis on parts that were apparently missed:
Base Enforcer has 60 speed, +30 base for SO, +50 for zero-flux boost always being on for 140 top speed in-combat (almost double your claimed speed).  This is further upgradable...

That shot's not using a base enforcer so we're already off to a poor start, but to be fair a mere 7% speed malus is not going to make a significant difference to the "spirit" of the claim.  So I'll quickly acquire an XIV Enforcer myself and test using that instead of my original claim.

More importantly, that screenshot doesn't capture the +50 zero-flux speed boost that is always on due to Safety Overrides, the critical component of the claim.

My own XIV Enforcer in the hanger, similar speed value to yours


Same XIV Enforcer on the field, please note the "speed" value in the bottom left corner.


While the speed boost isn't shown in the hanger, having a rudimentary understanding of the Safety Override hullmod, or simply taking minimal effort in actually testing the ship on the field, should have revealed that even a SO XIV enforcer not only has in-combat speeds far in excess of 80, but effortlessly breaches into the low 100's.
[close]

Why are you even talking about base enforcer when I was talking about xiv ships is beyond me.

And my point still stands, by "top speed reaching the 80's" I clearly meant the value displayed on the ship profile.

If you read carefully what is written in the screenshot, it is written: Top speed: 83

Going as far as accusing people of lying to win some sort e-peen measuring contest ruins the "constructive" discussion that apparently you were trying to have.

Typically when people are talking about the speed of a ship, they are talking about the speed at which the ship moves in the game.
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IonDragonX

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Re: Let's talk about xiv ships
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2021, 06:06:58 PM »

which mod is that "world eater platform" from?
I think that's a Bear-class from Varya's Ship Pack
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