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Author Topic: New skill system is a step backwards  (Read 22737 times)

PeepingPeacock

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New skill system is a step backwards
« on: April 06, 2021, 06:09:02 PM »

Story points, contacts and the new story missions have all been praised as great additions to the game, outside of some minor quibbles. The new skill system is not nearly as universal in its praise and I believe its actually a regression from 9.1 for several reasons but the big one is thematics for at least two of the trees.

Easily the most common complaint is that skill trees are all over the place in theme and unlike the last version's skill system where that wouldn't really matter, here you're forced to take skills that just don't do anything for you in terms of game plan.That doesn't mean the skills are weak or anything, but peoples idea of planning out an archetype of a character and picking choices that help that along doesn't really exist anymore with the new skill system. I think this is an unfortunate side effect of getting rid of a ton of player choice by design, as Alex noticed players getting decision paralysis when confronted with 32 skills to level. Now its 8 choices at a time.

Combat - Still has its theme of "shoot good, fly fast" intact.

Leadership - What used to be the big fleet/carrier tree is now a hodgepodge of random skills that have little to nothing to do with each other.



Old skills - more command points for your large fleet. More officers for your large fleet. Less supply use for your large fleet, boosts to all your ships. Deploying more ship's gives you a bonus. 4 Carrier skills and a thematic boost to colonies and ground combat.



New skills - first option is damage or usable in combat civilian ships? Damage makes sense here as its fleet-wide but why isn't civ ships an industry skill?
Second option is frigate skills you would want both of if your going for a run like that, the first option is fleet-wide but it requires putting officers in frigates. Its not really a skill for large fleets, it just happens to buff them.
Third option is another fleet-wide buff that gets worse the more ships you have and a carrier skill.
Fourth is a choice between better officers or more of them and is the best feeling "They work together and you want both" skills because it don't feel like your losing out on picking one or the other. Fifth is again the thematic boost but not having anything to do with the others feels bad here because your forced to take it if you want to loop around.

Technology - The utility tree is still the utility tree.

Industry - What happened to the Industry tree is a tragedy and the direct reason for this post.
Its had all thematic junker play style support removed from it, has skills that don't belong there, filled with skills that do mostly the same thing instead of choices like other trees, an actual useless skill if you loop it.

I know, I know, derelict contingent is hilariously overpowered, but what fulfills the fantasy of having a junker fleet better?
A 5-dmod ship piloted by an officer being much better than a pristine ship piloted by the same officer?
Or a large collection of D-mod ships that are cheap to run and worse than their pristine counterparts?



Old skills - Every single skill in the old industry tree saved you money or made it in some way.

Less crew loss in combat, CR loss takes longer for malfunctions, D-mod negative effects reduced by 50%. More recovered weapons, more recovered ships, more fuel, less D-mods. Recovered ships start with more CR and hull, Hull and armor repaired after combat at no cost, faster repairs, D-mod maintenance cost reduction. Rare resources from stations, post battle additional salvage, remote scan. 2 colony skills.

Whats in italics has been nerfed so badly it might as well not exist for large fleets, especially the Hull and armor repair.
Everything bold has been flat out removed from the game, its just gone. A chunk of the entire tree and an entire play style just had all its support vanish with nothing to replace it, why?!



New skills -

First option is more supplies and fuel from stations and a bit extra from fights or the ability to actually carry it, you want both but the cargo space is clearly better now that salvage has been massively nerfed and no longer gives blueprints.
Second option is two skills taken from the combat tree, why are these even in industry? Why are flagship combat bonuses in the industry tree instead of something like the removed better recovery chances on ships and weapons or bonuses to contacts or anything else that would actually make sense in this tree.
Third option is better fuel economy with mostly nerfed less crew loss or better supplies and surveying, you want both again and you would want the combat stuff with supplies and the exploration with the fuel so either way you feel bad about your choice.
Fourth is the most backwards choice in the entire game as well as being one of the most broken, if you want a small elite force you pick the option that wants trashed ships, if you want a big fleet you pick the one that keeps everything pristine, this is totally counter to how anyone would think about D-mods. Its also the only skill choice where getting one makes the other skill literally useless after awhile, this skill choice is an abomination.
Fifth option thematically fits but gets completely invalidated with an item later on and your forced to take it to loop. Its also yet another skill where you want both again because they do nearly the same thing, Industry is plagued with this problem, you get cool choices in the other trees but in this one you feel like your getting half the deal. Give us a choice between a contact boost or colony boost, a choice between better supply economy or combat buffs. An actual choice instead of just picking the better of two things to do almost the same thing or would normally be used together.

The junker play style went from being able to scavenge bundles of weapons and ships with very low maintenance costs, paying less to fix them up and less for our own that got blow up in combat. Having D-mod ships be be better than bad but worse than good. Having nearly every skill synergize with others while still being good on their own.

To having one skill make a few officer'd ships full of d-mods be the best thing in the game. With no other skills doing anything for derelict ships. Horrible horrible horrible change.

TL;DR: Industry is terrible
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Chaos Blade

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Re: New skill system is a step backwards
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2021, 06:38:55 PM »

I agree, what is worse the more I think about it, the less I like the new system
it doesn't feel like there is a progression between the skills, so the order of unlock seems forced, the OR choices are meh to me, specially when they make no sense as an OR choice, and few have no place in the aptitude trees, and feel like they are there because "something has to go here"
Honestly, I prefer freedom here, I could see some specializations that are exclusive, you go one way or the other, but that would be specializations.
Industry is probably the worst offender:
Assume you are playing a scavenger/salvor, you would pick the first salvage option, the second pick is of no real interst to you, but in the third pick a salvager would need both, specially if you plan to go deep afield, less supply use and less fuel use are must haves but you have to pick one or the other.
Honestly, I think a hybrid between both system would be intersting, pair skills but instead of a yes/no, you retain three levels per skill, you can improve one to max at the cost of the other, or both more or less evenly (with a bias?) that way you can get access to basic tiers of the skill, basic functionality (or make two tiers, with the third being worth a story point "elite" option, but only if you fully specialized)

Also yeah, derelict contingent is, conceptually a bad idea. it needs to be said, no skill that makes a shattered hulk in the shape of a ship better than its pristine alternate, should exist. game balance should be no excuse to what it is an immersion breaking skill
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Histidine

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Re: New skill system is a step backwards
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2021, 07:29:17 PM »

Good post, brings together a bunch of points scattered in posts elsewhere.

I feel that making the aptitudes symmetrical (5 levels of 2 skills each, with linear progression through them) resulted in needing to have 'padding' skills.
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Baqar79

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Re: New skill system is a step backwards
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2021, 09:30:07 PM »

Honestly, I think a hybrid between both system would be intersting, pair skills but instead of a yes/no, you retain three levels per skill, you can improve one to max at the cost of the other, or both more or less evenly (with a bias?) that way you can get access to basic tiers of the skill, basic functionality (or make two tiers, with the third being worth a story point "elite" option, but only if you fully specialized)
While I don't necessarily agree 100% with this approach, I'm not a fan of the current skill progression; that is the requirement of purchasing a previous skill to get the latter.  It is even weirder once you finish a tree, since now you need to fill out both previous skills to get access to the next one where the first time around this wasn't the case.

I would be much happier with the system if you could pick any skill on the tree regardless of the order but retain the exclusive choice system.  Perhaps have the permanent skills like Officer Training/Officer Management and Special Modifications/Automated ships unlock after filling the other 4 skills in whatever order you wish.

The combat tree I think should retain the old system (except for those 3 tier skills as I hated wasting points in those!); as you are pretty much forced to choose a particular set of skills whether you want them or not.  For example if I'm piloting a Hyperion with Ion Pulser's, I'm interested in Shield Modulation, but Impact Mitigation & Ranged Specialization are both useless to me.  Since you generally miss out on fleetwide bonuses, being able to pick whatever pilot skills you want in whatever order seems fairly fair considering what you can potentially lose out on.

Skills I love (first playthrough):
Leadership:
-Wolf Pack Tactics (My 3 officer commanded Hyperions are the main thing holding my fleet together)
-Officer Training (6th skill is a must, and the additional elite point is a nice bonus)

Technology:
-Sensors (I love the +3 burn in stealth mode, sneaking around Remnant infested systems and stealth operations are much easier)
-Special Modifications (+1 hullmod isn't actually that much of a deal practically but cool nonetheless and the additional capacitors and vents are nice)

Industry:
-Makeshift Equipment (the supply cost reduction is fantastic and still very much useful in my lategame fleet and the 50% survey cost reduction isn't bad either as an explorer/salvager)

Skills I like:
Combat:
-Helmsmanship (very nice complement to the Hyperion for it's elite component to make Phase Teleporter more useful and make up for the slow speed of the Hyperion)
Leadership:
-Crew Training (Combat readiness is always great, and the bonus is still relatively useful later with larger fleets due to 180 point recovery cost)
Technology:
-Navigation (second time through tree - mostly for the terrain movement bonus, though the +1 to burn speed is fantastic; moving around at 20 speed is possible with capitals)
-Phase Corps (the +50% reduction to fleetwide sensor profile bonus part)

Industry:
-Field Repairs (great skill for early in the game, but once money is no problem and your fleet is too large to make the most of the repair bonus, I reassigned this skill point to Helmsmanship)

Skills that were average:
Leadership:
-Ground Operations (I was still losing what felt like a lot of marines eg ~30 for a stack of 600 Marines with 2 Phantom transports, and the governed colony bonus isn't very useful as I was happy with having my 3 colonies governed by others)
Technology:
-Electronic Warfare (This was much more useful than I thought, but it sounds like it is a bit of a necessity against big AI fleets with lots of commanders)
-Gunnery Implants (well this is a piloted ship skill only, but the two options given are 2 of the better piloted skills in my opinion)

Industry:
-Salvaging (This is a good skill earlier on, but I don't think it retains it usefulness late in the game where you aren't doing much salvaging)
-Reliability Engineering (like the technology trees piloted skill option, both options given are some of the better piloted skills in my opinion)


The Industry tree seems to be one that loses effectiveness with game progression.  The only option I really wanted on that tree by late game is Makeshift Equipment.

Skills I didn't like:
Leadership:
-Weapon Drills (I wasn't a fan of this miniscule bonus even at 10% and it quickly becomes less than this.  I think adding 10% to range and flux reduction would make it a bit better, but it still scales down too quickly to be of any use other than fufilling the requirement of unlocking the excellent Wolfpack Tactics)
Technology:
-Phase Corps (yeah, I put this in skills I like, but the bonus to flux generation and operation time with only 30 OP is extremely limiting and deserves a mention)
« Last Edit: April 06, 2021, 09:37:07 PM by Baqar79 »
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SCC

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Re: New skill system is a step backwards
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2021, 10:03:25 PM »

There's a bit of an issue, where skills that are put in pairs sometimes are supposed to be ones where you want both (Helmsmanship and Strike Commander, but fighters were nerfed, so I don't even bother with officers on carriers), but sometimes there are pairs where the choice is playstyle dependent (shield vs phase skill).

Baqar79

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Re: New skill system is a step backwards
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2021, 10:32:17 PM »

Do hired officers have the same restriction?

I have several officers which have both Damage Control and Reliability Engineering but I can't remember if officers could have something like Systems Expertise and Missile Specialization.
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Low Settings

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Re: New skill system is a step backwards
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2021, 02:51:47 AM »

I for one love the current skill system. It forces you to make a choice. No more super captain ships. It also gives you both replayability(taking permanent skills) and infinite play(not taking permanent skills) which i prefer. I remember asking for a respec feature and I am thankful for it.
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Low Settings

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Re: New skill system is a step backwards
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2021, 03:05:09 AM »

Do hired officers have the same restriction?

I have several officers which have both Damage Control and Reliability Engineering but I can't remember if officers could have something like Systems Expertise and Missile Specialization.
Maybe if you mentor them. Can you imagine 8 officers with systems expert and missile spec on Vayra Falcons?
« Last Edit: April 07, 2021, 03:18:40 AM by jonathansanity »
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Fenrir

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Re: New skill system is a step backwards
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2021, 03:27:47 AM »

Yeah, I felt the same on the sequence. I'm not saying "Tier" is a bad design, fairly excellent one in fact, but the current trees except Technology don't have or don't show a clear logic in them. Most skills are well-designed themselves but directly putting them one next another is not yet coherent, and a few of them (especially Weapon Drill and Automated Ships) do need a buff in compare to their same-tier-rivals.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2021, 05:44:18 PM by Fenrir »
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TaLaR

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Re: New skill system is a step backwards
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2021, 03:39:53 AM »

All the viable builds seem quite similar, with few skills swapped around to lock you into piloting a different ship.

Tech 5 is so good it's mandatory (either 5th pick).
If you spend less than 4 of remaining points into combat, you are inferior to just about every officer in terms of personal skills (which equals every enemy ship now). So doing this sucks subjectively.

Imo, idea of wrap-around to get both skills just straight doesn't work.

The only case when it may be worthwhile is Tech 7 (which won't be the case anymore if EWM is to be nerfed).
Or maybe Combat 8, but ONLY for Odyssey/Legion piloting.
In every other case you take too many useless ballast skills, killing the build's viability.
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Chaos Blade

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Re: New skill system is a step backwards
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2021, 03:56:47 AM »

Honestly, I think a hybrid between both system would be intersting, pair skills but instead of a yes/no, you retain three levels per skill, you can improve one to max at the cost of the other, or both more or less evenly (with a bias?) that way you can get access to basic tiers of the skill, basic functionality (or make two tiers, with the third being worth a story point "elite" option, but only if you fully specialized)
While I don't necessarily agree 100% with this approach, I'm not a fan of the current skill progression; that is the requirement of purchasing a previous skill to get the latter.  It is even weirder once you finish a tree, since now you need to fill out both previous skills to get access to the next one where the first time around this wasn't the case.

I would be much happier with the system if you could pick any skill on the tree regardless of the order but retain the exclusive choice system.  Perhaps have the permanent skills like Officer Training/Officer Management and Special Modifications/Automated ships unlock after filling the other 4 skills in whatever order you wish.

The combat tree I think should retain the old system (except for those 3 tier skills as I hated wasting points in those!); as you are pretty much forced to choose a particular set of skills whether you want them or not.  For example if I'm piloting a Hyperion with Ion Pulser's, I'm interested in Shield Modulation, but Impact Mitigation & Ranged Specialization are both useless to me.  Since you generally miss out on fleetwide bonuses, being able to pick whatever pilot skills you want in whatever order seems fairly fair considering what you can potentially lose out on.

I agree in so much that the progression in skills is probable a bad idea here, because there ins't progression I mean.
I don't get the feeling my character has become more of a specialist and feels artificial, same with the picks, from what I understand from Alex's post he wanted a few meaningful choices, this is a stark failure here.There are choices, they are heafty bonues in some of them but they aren't significative.
Some have clear bias, some have clear applications (I mean fighter and phase are more or less niches, they are a fraction of the ships available and they are counterpointed by more generalist skills, in the sense that are skills that will affect the whole fleet as opposed to Xtype of ship, so picking either of the former is going to be significantly rarer) ad then you have picks where I just go ???? like gunnery implants or the beam weapon specialziation, again, a generalist skill that will affect all weapons AND provide ECM  vs one that is only important for energy ones(now, if both provided ECM bonuses...) Honestly we should have a generalist option and KE and energy specialization, just as an example

it is bad design.
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Carabus

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Re: New skill system is a step backwards
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2021, 03:57:53 AM »

Good post, I agree with most points especially with how Industry playstyle buffing skills got ruined.

One thing I would like to add is that although the point of new skill tree is to make player less overwhelmed with choices, in practice I feel more overwhelmed by them.
Earlier you could choose from 32 skills, but most had a single effect at each level, which was easy to mentally parse. Also you could pick just one level of the skill for the effect you want and forget about the other two.
But now each skill has 3-4 effects, sometimes loosely related, sometimes applying to different ships types or different situations, with each skill you must wrap you mind about how each effect applies to your fleet, how will it apply to it if your fleet grows etc. An while it is may be quite simple for single skill, now you have the alternate skill which you must analyze too, and then if the skill you want is not in the first tier you must analyze the skills before it. Aaand if you decide both the skills and the alternative skill are a must have for you must analyze the rest of skill tiers to decide whether it is your priority.
All in all, I feel it is much harder to chose a skill now. Earlier you could look at a single skill, even at single level of a skill and think "this is a bonus I want now" and just pick it without negative consequences, other than spending one of 50 skillpoints you were going to have.
Now you must analyze all 3-4 effects, and the alternative skill effects etc. Luckily there is respec so you can change your decision later, but respec could be make allowed with old skill tree as well.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2021, 05:08:51 AM by Carabus »
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bluevulture

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Re: New skill system is a step backwards
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2021, 04:42:19 AM »

I said this in another thread, but I think that respecing feels like a crutch for the new systems faults. I thought that being able to reassign skill points would be a neat thing in the old system, but never necessary, whereas the new system very much feels like you are going to need to respec. I feel like the goal of a skill system should be that respecing is a "once in a blue moon" sorta thing, and not practically every time you want to do something slightly different.

And, yeah, the junker playstyle was my favorite thing about the game, and it made d-mods actually feel like a cool mechanic, in terms of advantage and trade off, but now it's just another hyperspecific buff that changes a single aspect of the game...
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ObsidianSage

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Re: New skill system is a step backwards
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2021, 04:50:58 AM »

Quote
I think this is an unfortunate side effect of getting rid of a ton of player choice by design, as Alex noticed players getting decision paralysis when confronted with 32 skills to level. Now its 8 choices at a time.

This is incredibly antithetical to the game's design honestly. In a world where just starting the game is often paralyzing in choice (am I going to smuggle? trade? explore? do story missions? pirate? commission? etc. etc) it's a strange choice to neuter HOW you build your character and leave intact WHAT your character does especially when the latter can heavily rely on the former. The either or conundrum honestly fills me with dread. Lots of skills don't seem to have an easily determinable impact as far as overall build. It's hard to derive an "archetype" out of the new system, and doesn't feel very personal. Like you said, picking "useless" or "suboptimal" skills to get far enough up the tree to something you DO want is just poor design overall. The either or choice feels especially bad when you really actually want both.

I really would like to see the old system optionally added back in, so players can choose which system to interact with. Doubt it will happen though. Can hope that some brilliant modder can implant the old system back into the game, although I'm not a game designer nor a modder so I wouldn't have a clue as to what an undertaking that would be, or if it's even possible at all. How much balance would break if the old system came back with all the additional changes of 0.95? All I know is, I delay having to open that screen until I really feel like I need it, which to me signals poor design, but I'm just one person so it's all subjective.

And yes, I signed up a forum account just to reply to this thread, because as I play 0.95 more and more I really do not see myself warming up to the leveling system, in fact quite the opposite.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 12:08:04 AM by ObsidianSage »
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Chaos Blade

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Re: New skill system is a step backwards
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2021, 05:04:39 AM »

Quote
I think this is an unfortunate side effect of getting rid of a ton of player choice by design, as Alex noticed players getting decision paralysis when confronted with 32 skills to level. Now its 8 choices at a time.

This is incredibly antithetical to the game's design honestly. In a world where just starting the game is often paralyzing in choice (am I going to smuggle? trade? explore? do story missions? pirate? commission? etc. etc) it's a strange choice to neuter HOW you build your character and leave intact WHAT your character does especially when the latter can heavily rely on the former. The either or conundrum honestly fills me with dread. Lots of skills don't seem to have an easily determinable impact as far as overall build. It's hard to derive an "archetype" out of the new system, and doesn't feel very personal. Like you said, picking "useless" or "suboptimal" skills to get far enough up the tree to something you DO want is just poor design overall. The either or choice feels especially bad when you really actually want both.

I really would like to see either the old system optionally added back in, so players can choose which system to interact with. Doubt it will happen though. Can hope that some brilliant modder can implant the old system back into the game, although I'm not a game designer nor a modder so I wouldn't have a clue as to what an undertaking that would be, or if it's even possible at all. How much balance would break if the old system came back with all the additional changes of 0.95? All I know is, I delay having to open that screen until I really feel like I need it, which to me signals poor design, but I'm just one person so it's all subjective.

And yes, I signed up a forum account just to reply to this thread, because as I play 0.95 more and more I really do not see myself warming up to the leveling system, in fact quite the opposite.

You know, I feel the same, I was rather ambibalent and, to be honest had sorta forgotten how the old system was, but the more I think about it and the more I remember, the less I like the new one.
it doesn't work for me.
The skill set option would be neat, and hopefully some moder can do that.
I do fear that it might be difficult since the galatia questchain does give you the nav abilities that are missing, not sure if it contemplates having both (not the skills, just the neutrino and transversal) that should be one point to check for issues (how the quest chain determines which mission to give and how)

THat said there is already a mod that gets rid of the binary choice AND the progression choice, linky https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=20495.0 Haven't tested it yet, though
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