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[Immahnoob]

Some people claiming that it's good that we can't be one-man armies now.
Well, no, it's not good because there's really nothing to take the place of that tactic now besides heavy amounts of cheese.
Until we have proper tactics going on, how would your presence be felt when you're "just another capital ship"?

But yeah, I don't remember the old skill system at all, I've started playing again after waiting for so long for the new version. I'm OK overall with what's going on, but I understand and agree that the binary choices are sucky and even what we're forced to choose in general is sucky.

[speeder]

I am using that mod. (the one Chaos Blade posted right before my reply, that let you ignore the progression and pick in whatever order you want)

It greatly improved the game but... the skills are STILL worse.

Seriously, even with me being able to pick any skill I want, my skill build suck.

1. I feel now there is a distinctive lack of fleet-boosting skills.

2. Also there is a distinctive lack of real industry boosting skills, for example no skill to help you find blueprints or parts for your huh... industries.

3. Fighter skills feel not enough for me.

4. The "range" skills are outright terrible, you either get damage at very short range, or at range that doesn't exist (example: energy skill that give damage boost at range 1600... except even with all mods I installed most energy weapons go up to around 1000, 1200 sometimes if you are pushing it...)

5. ECM skills are silly, why officer spam lets you increase ECM rating for EVERY SHIP on your fleet? ECM should be a fleet commander skill and apply only once, or an officer skill and apply only to their own ship, and at a flat rate or something, frigates getting more ECM for no reason is annoying, Battletech games that had "light mech ECM spam" did that with light mechs that were specific for it (Raven for example was great... it was fast, full of ECM, but fragile, it would wreck your *** if you knew how to micromanage it and pilot it well, utterly useless if you let it get into brawls with big mechs).

6. For the raiders out there: I noticed there is only one raider-relevant skill, it would be cool if there was skills that increase chances of stealing something or finding cool stuff while raiding.



Finally, the limits... seirously wtf those limits! For example I got the AI skill just because I found one cool AI ship, only to find out that ship alone passed the skill limit and it was permanently hobbled to 35% CR or something, so I had to install a mod to raise that limit to something reasonable.  I also noticed a bunch of the skills I picked do pratically nothing, because I made my fleet larger to withstand AI fleets (I kept losing fights to waaaaaay larger forces because I kept running out of CR no matter how brilliant my pilots were) and then suddenly all skills suck.

[Chaos Blade]

I am using that mod. (the one Chaos Blade posted right before my reply, that let you ignore the progression and pick in whatever order you want)

It greatly improved the game but... the skills are STILL worse.

Seriously, even with me being able to pick any skill I want, my skill build suck.

1. I feel now there is a distinctive lack of fleet-boosting skills.

2. Also there is a distinctive lack of real industry boosting skills, for example no skill to help you find blueprints or parts for your huh... industries.

3. Fighter skills feel not enough for me.

4. The "range" skills are outright terrible, you either get damage at very short range, or at range that doesn't exist (example: energy skill that give damage boost at range 1600... except even with all mods I installed most energy weapons go up to around 1000, 1200 sometimes if you are pushing it...)

5. ECM skills are silly, why officer spam lets you increase ECM rating for EVERY SHIP on your fleet? ECM should be a fleet commander skill and apply only once, or an officer skill and apply only to their own ship, and at a flat rate or something, frigates getting more ECM for no reason is annoying, Battletech games that had "light mech ECM spam" did that with light mechs that were specific for it (Raven for example was great... it was fast, full of ECM, but fragile, it would wreck your *** if you knew how to micromanage it and pilot it well, utterly useless if you let it get into brawls with big mechs).

6. For the raiders out there: I noticed there is only one raider-relevant skill, it would be cool if there was skills that increase chances of stealing something or finding cool stuff while raiding.



Finally, the limits... seirously wtf those limits! For example I got the AI skill just because I found one cool AI ship, only to find out that ship alone passed the skill limit and it was permanently hobbled to 35% CR or something, so I had to install a mod to raise that limit to something reasonable.  I also noticed a bunch of the skills I picked do pratically nothing, because I made my fleet larger to withstand AI fleets (I kept losing fights to waaaaaay larger forces because I kept running out of CR no matter how brilliant my pilots were) and then suddenly all skills suck.

I still need to play with that mod, but I get the feeling, I haven't seen much feeltwide boosting skills, industry skills have become rather bad or meaningless and fighters got nerfed a lot. I'd need to look into phase one of these days, but I really haven't had much luck getting those hulls, so...

I am going to disagree wth  the Frigate ECM, I'd say I'd like some hullmods or dedicated ECM ships but, on the flip side we'd need to have some HARM type missiles or something, so that ECM needs to be on the knife edge to be useful (after all if all my ECM is all the way back there, it isn't going to do much for my fleet) and since ECM is a blanket number, Frigates and/or destroyers make the most sense.
I mean, again if you are an ECM engine you are emitting, so you should be vulnerable to some attacks, and makes putting them in capitals a less than good idea
Plus it gives a reason to have lighter combatants in the field (I mean frigates and destroyers can turn the tide, going in and out, harrasing bigger ships and forcing them to either take hits or overload) so they have already a role (and one the AI can use) adding ECM duties isn't a terrible compromise and saves us from cheese of having some ECM platform staying well behind the battleline (which I feel would be very hard to balance.

I agree with the raiders.


Now, regarding the limits, yeah. they are problematic and need balancing.
That and getting rid of Derelict contingent into a 0.9.1 analogue, because it is insane conceptually and the more I think about it the more I hate the idea of having barely functional hulks outperforming their pristine bretheren.
Reduce the effects of Dmods? sure, make them cheaper to operate? certainly. But making a hulked destroyer tank 10k damage? are you on medication?

EDIT one more thought about the limits, it is very hard to know, at a glance if you are over or not. that should be looked into PDQ, after all having a skill is one thing I know I get this bonus, but if my skill works only in x or Y circumstances I need to know if I apply at a glance

[Megas]

What I dislike about Industry:
* Every officer needs one of the Industry 2 skills, if I do not want Reinforced Bulkheads on everything to guarantee recovery.
* Field Repairs take way too long to remove d-mods.
* The colony skills (what I really want if I do not feel like using alphas for admins) are all on tier 5, and I can only take one instead of both.  Double dipping Industry is a no-go.
* Double dipping Industry to 4 has skills working against each other.  One wants max d-mods, the other removes d-mods for those who do not want them.

As for other skills and other gameplay changes, they push frigates, but do not give them enough PPT to stay in battle long enough without skills.  (I want Combat, but I may be forced to abandon it and take Wolfpack Tactics to support frigates.)

Also not fond of the permanent skills.

Respec costs too many SP after player makes his skills elite.

[Grievous69]

This probably sounds a bit harsh but I'm glad I was so negative the first time this system got introduced in the blog post. Of course you can't say anything too bad about the game here so immediately people told me I'm just being pessimistic, "wait and see", "you don't know that in advance" etc. Well now that half of the playerbase is not happy with the skill system hopefully something will get changed so we don't actually play the silly skill picking game anymore. I've been playing since the skills first became a thing and this is the worst one yet because I genuinely feel bad choosing skills I literally will never make use of.

Sorry for this little rant, but it's seriously the only thing that bugs me a lot in the 0.95 patch. Other things can at least be rebalanced, I don't know how Alex is going to tackle this honestly.

EDIT: For clarification: It's the combination of very limited skill points and required paths that make this truly miserable. There should only be one side, either we can pick pretty much anything but limited points so there's meaning, or a bunch of skill points where you can get ALMOST anything, but you have to follow a certain path to get the stronger skills. This is how most games do it, there's a reason for it lmao. No point in reinventing the wheel.

[Dex]

I disagree, quite simply. With the OP and many here.
The aim was to give the player meaningful choices during character progression. Mission accomplished. Having to sacrifice some really fancy skills provides different approaches to the game in different play throughs. Even within current games with the respec feature.

Most comments seem to be parroting something similar to 'i dont want to make this choice' or 'im not as powerful as i want/used to be'. Im thinking of ways to phrase this gently but its basically 'So?'. Adapt! A lack of challenge is boring. Always, always.

People REALLY only don't like the skill as its different from what they are used to. Its not as all powerful and there are more sacrifices to be made for the actual skills players are prioritising. Theres more choices.

If anything, we now have more playstyles available as frigates are now far more viable in the late game and carriers aren't the god tier they used to be. Thank god.

Id argue if this was a first implementation of skills the opinions would be less.... opinionated. Having a 'preferable' point of reference gives a 'good old days' perspective pertaining to ones own prior, narrow, experience. The previous skills sucked, guys, there was like two choices and that was industry or combat.

Very presumptuous of me to say so, probably.

Edit: Just wanted to say, derelict contingent, not a fan, feels weird.

[Grievous69]

Bruh what? Where do you see more choices, I struggle to see how I'm going to completely change up my playstyle in future runs when I already got burnt on some skills. Having to pick skills you don't want just to get ones you want is the very definition of less choice, it's pointless. Sure it might seem more interesting at first glance but as soon as you see what each skill does you get slapped in the face with reality.

Also the whole point of the new skill system was streamlining it, so new players aren't overloaded with choices. I remember this way back from the blog posts. Being forced one out of two skills isn't a "meaningful choice", it's a chore.

[Immahnoob]

I disagree, quite simply. With the OP and many here.
The aim was to give the player meaningful choices during character progression. Mission accomplished. Having to sacrifice some really fancy skills provides different approaches to the game in different play throughs. Even within current games with the respec feature.

Most comments seem to be parroting something similar to 'i dont want to make this choice' or 'im not as powerful as i want/used to be'. Im thinking of ways to phrase this gently but its basically 'So?'. Adapt! A lack of challenge is boring. Always, always.

People REALLY only don't like the skill as its different from what they are used to. Its not as all powerful and there are more sacrifices to be made for the actual skills players are prioritising. Theres more choices.

If anything, we now have more playstyles available as frigates are now far more viable in the late game and carriers aren't the god tier they used to be. Thank god.

Id argue if this was a first implementation of skills the opinions would be less.... opinionated. Having a 'preferable' point of reference gives a 'good old days' perspective pertaining to ones own prior, narrow, experience. The previous skills sucked, guys, there was like two choices and that was industry or combat.

Very presumptuous of me to say so, probably.

Edit: Just wanted to say, derelict contingent, not a fan, feels weird.

This is like taking it into the other direction completely while ignoring any good argument presented. The choices have to be meaningful if you're going to be limiting them for example.
A lot of the issues here are that you're nothing special except for your tactics at this point, which will not help you unless you cheese the hell out of the game.

[Chaos Blade]

I disagree, quite simply. With the OP and many here.
The aim was to give the player meaningful choices during character progression. Mission accomplished. Having to sacrifice some really fancy skills provides different approaches to the game in different play throughs. Even within current games with the respec feature.

Most comments seem to be parroting something similar to 'i dont want to make this choice' or 'im not as powerful as i want/used to be'. Im thinking of ways to phrase this gently but its basically 'So?'. Adapt! A lack of challenge is boring. Always, always.

People REALLY only don't like the skill as its different from what they are used to. Its not as all powerful and there are more sacrifices to be made for the actual skills players are prioritising. Theres more choices.

If anything, we now have more playstyles available as frigates are now far more viable in the late game and carriers aren't the god tier they used to be. Thank god.

Id argue if this was a first implementation of skills the opinions would be less.... opinionated. Having a 'preferable' point of reference gives a 'good old days' perspective pertaining to ones own prior, narrow, experience. The previous skills sucked, guys, there was like two choices and that was industry or combat.

Very presumptuous of me to say so, probably.

Edit: Just wanted to say, derelict contingent, not a fan, feels weird.

This is like taking it into the other direction completely while ignoring any good argument presented. The choices have to be meaningful if you're going to be limiting them for example.
A lot of the issues here are that you're nothing special except for your tactics at this point, which will not help you unless you cheese the hell out of the game.

Plus a question should be "what is the player experience going to be like"  are we going to be OP? special? or just one more guy trying to survive? if the last one is the focus...then the colonies should be right out and it should be a struggle to keep the fleet going but.... I don't think I want that kind of game.
you could get away with something like this in, say, battlebrothers, because you can tactic arround a lot of you limitations (by and large) and aren't the big guy in the field, but again combat there is Tunr based with a focus on skills and tactis.
Here you command one ship directly, arcadelike, and the rest of the fleet via commands...
we really don't have enough tactics to go around and, again, there is the colony issue.
So providing meaningful choises? yah, sure.
I do like to have some progression on my character page, though, maybe it is my time playing RPGs but improving skills? I like that. a lot.
Binary choices? I am not too hot on those, I could see perks being of the sort, which admittedly skills feel a bit like that, but again, no progression, skills don't feel like they grow with me, just arbitrary choices I pick every once in a while and might respec at some point in the future (and the fact that I might need to respec, speaks poorly of the implementation, respecing a char should be a very VERY rare thing)

[Megas]

If I feel like piloting a phase ship, I want Phase Mastery and Combat 5L.  If I feel like piloting Conquest, I want Shield Modulation and Missile Specialization.  I swap flagships on a whim, and I like to respec between fights, but elite skills makes that expensive.  (Even one skill point can be expensive if I swap flagships much and need different skills.)

Also, if I discover I need a bunch of frigates because I just entered endgame and need to adapt to gameplay changes, I may need to respec.

[intrinsic_parity]

Respecing is a very nice addition IMO. Given that skills buff specific ships, it's super limiting to take skills for niche ships without respecing, because then you are stuck with those ships forever. Now I can play around with a niche ship without having to play a whole different campaign.

[TaLaR]

Respec works only partially. You still lose tons of SP for elite skills. So you either have to avoid elite-ing anything you don't expect to keep permanently or respecs are going to set you back in major way.
And pretty much can't take L4, because if you take both that and T5 there are just not enough points left for many builds.

[Megas]

Respecing is a very nice addition IMO. Given that skills buff specific ships, it's super limiting to take skills for niche ships without respecing, because then you are stuck with those ships forever. Now I can play around with a niche ship without having to play a whole different campaign.

Respecing at all is nice, but with the way the game works, respecing often is very useful, except for the sp cost (after player made skills elite).

Respec works only partially. You still lose tons of SP for elite skills. So you either have to avoid elite-ing anything you don't expect to keep permanently or respecs are going to set you back in major way.

Oh, yes!

Also, if player wants to play with Automated Ships after he gets Special Modifications, he is forced to double-dip Tech because Spec.Mods. cannot be unlearned.  Double dipping Tech beyond 2 is underwhelming (don't care about faster fighters or phase corp with too low DP pool).  This is why I went for Automated Ships for my current game.

[Chaos Blade]

Respec works only partially. You still lose tons of SP for elite skills. So you either have to avoid elite-ing anything you don't expect to keep permanently or respecs are going to set you back in major way.

Because in this system respecing is less a nice addition and more a crutch and even then it isn't working very well

If I feel like piloting a phase ship, I want Phase Mastery and Combat 5L.  If I feel like piloting Conquest, I want Shield Modulation and Missile Specialization.  I swap flagships on a whim, and I like to respec between fights, but elite skills makes that expensive.  (Even one skill point can be expensive if I swap flagships much and need different skills.)

Also, if I discover I need a bunch of frigates because I just entered endgame and need to adapt to gameplay changes, I may need to respec.

That is my point, a character skill system that makes you need to respec can't be a good system. it isn't about playstiles, that is a more general thing that should go from generalist to whatever suits your needs, but that is the thing, a lot of those specialist skills are all over the skill tree, even without the story point lost in elite variants, it feels like a really bad fit and that is without considering the other issues

Honestly at this stage I'd rather have skill loadouts than the current set up. having skills but having only so many active ones.

and I am not a fan of that, it just goes to show how much the new skill system is annoying me. (and the more I think about it, the worse it gets)
Skills need to be significant, need to be interesting and they need to feel as part of a progression, that is not happening here

[Dex]

Every skill tier is a choice?

Having to pick skills you dont want to get those you do? To start, thats an almost fundamental aspect of progression and applies near universally to RPGS that have more mechanics than you have fingers.

Just to clarify, i believe there is huge difference between 'choices' and choices. Hopefully the italics will portray my intent there, else its gonna get wordy. - seems like i did, below.

For the sake of this discussion, and i apologise if this has already been mentioned but i didnt read large swathes of the somewhat redundant comments, do you have examples? Of skills you dont want?


Mr noob.
Im not here to argue with everyone as I quite simply havent read everything. Even if i did, im not really compos mentis enough to hold it all in my head because reasons.

The overarching message i have is: Choice is good. I can only say we disagree on what 'meaningful' choices are. Share your definition?

ALSO, the choices are at their most basic

15 skill levels and five tiers, of debatably increasing potency.
thats three entire trees with one choice at each tier.
thats one tree with no choices made (going round twice, ill come back to this) and one tree with choices at each tier.
A mash of whetever skills.
and a mash of whatever of the above.

Theres also archetypes and sub archetypes you can base your choices around, which is also a choice!. E.g. Shortrange, long range, carrier etc etc. Its unlikely youre gonna be able to get all applicable skills to your archetype unless you sacrifice leadership or industry. Choice!

Also, if you want to go round twice on a tree to get multiple upper tier skills but theres skills you dont want on the way? that is ALSO a meaningful choice. Is that skill worth the 'dead' point?

Now compare this to previous incarnations. All those before were WHEN should i get 10% more OP fleet wide, shield expert and so on. Not IF. Just wanna say, holy crap i miss the, what was it? 30% more OP fleet wide? MENTAL. and awesome. but silly.

Im not saying the skills cant be tweaked, theres some skills in questionable locations. But really, this a great system. Power creep is a thing and the s-mods, im pretty sure, counter a LARGE chunk of any power depreciation you see, imagined or real. Its just portrayed differently and else where.

ill leave this mind vomit here. I suppose theses are just things i want people to consider before finding their pitchforks. A counterpoint is healthy? maybe?

Man... im taking so long to write this in my mind haze you people keep replying.

Mr Blade.
Seems nice quick response.
Well one of your choices is 'do i want to be a ****hot ninja pilot or do i want to be captain mother of the seven samurai' you cant be effective at both. Meaningful choice here. I cant speak as such for Alex, of course, But i dont think he wants 'Captain mother, the ninja pilot' to be the only meta worth considering.

This game shares quite a few aspects with battlebrothers.

With reference to binary choices, hah, well, i can teasingly say all choices are binary. Its either this, or not this. I dont really have an opinion on that, having more options per level would just be different i wouldnt say it it would give more overall choice as something you would have had to sacrifice at some other point, now never has to be. Which is less choice. Have to witness.

I disagree with you regarding respec. Its so cheap and once youve got your master fleet and millions rolling in you can drop all of industry. Which is more choice.