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Author Topic: Doom with skills: "I am growing stronger"  (Read 11799 times)

SCC

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Re: Doom with skills: "I am growing stronger"
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2021, 11:08:34 PM »

Well, it's not the only ship capable of soloing end game fleets at the moment.  I know I've taken down 350k bounty fleets solo with an Odyssey (which provides a crazy amount of XP: 3.7 million with XP double from SP).  Double Radiants might be tougher though - I'll have to try that.
I tried Odyssey against Remnants in 0.9.1. It did not work. Everything but Radiants I could kill, but since the point was to defeat Radiant, too, no dice. You have to burst them down, before they burst you down. Conquest could defeat them, by kiting and picking them one by one. In fact, this thread exists because I tried soloing Remnants with a Conquest and couldn't do it like in 0.9.1, then I looked for alternatives.
I didn't realize officers skills carry over when you switch pilots, is it just missiles spec and CR stuff, but you get to use your own skills as well?
I don't think they do, but the game doesn't just remove half your missiles and 15% CR from your ship, after you switch to it from your flagship, so you kinda get benefits of these skills anyway.

Hiruma Kai

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Re: Doom with skills: "I am growing stronger"
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2021, 11:31:44 PM »

That's pretty similar to my standard odyssey loadout from the last patch. I used sabots +plasma in the last release all the time, I just had to save the sabots for tough enemies without extra ammo, so I know how strong it is/was. I usually go very light on PD for more dissipation, but I guess that doesn't work as well without escorts. I also prefer locust to hurricanes usually because plasma cannons have armor penetration covered, and locusts are great for finishing stuff without committing. I'm not sure I understand your skills though, which side is B and which side is L lol?
B = Both sides.  Basically 8 combat, 7 Tech.

My view on PD is go heavy or don't bother, as you're just wasting soft flux and still taking the incoming ordinance anyways.  Especially solo, since light PD will get saturated anyways.

The PD does a decent job of handling Remnant fighters, for example.  The Hurricane I consider a toss up with the Locust.  If there's heavier fighter I'd drop it for locust definitely.  The Hurricane I've found makes a decent quick finisher as the enemy is pulling back overloaded if I haven't had a chance to hit it with plasma.  In 0.9.1a because of the tighter OP budget it was always locust, but this time I'm trying the Hurricane, for things like speeding up Onslaught killing.

Conquest feel really squishy now too, I think because there are a lot less armor skills and a few new damage boosting skills that specifically increase damage to capitals. I have a SO aurora that will kill them in one pass (the new omega weapons are kinda busted to be fair though).
  I agree, SO Auroras with skills do a number on Conquests, yeah.

I didn't realize officers skills carry over when you switch pilots, is it just missiles spec and CR stuff, but you get to use your own skills as well?

The skills used are your skills when piloting any ship, even when transferring command.  However, hard numbers like the ship's current CR, peak remaining time, or the missiles in the tubes don't change once you are in the mission.  I don't benefit from say, +50% missile hp or +50% missile fire rate, but it is like getting a free stacking Expanded missile racks and +15% CR at the expense of an officer.

When I was trying to kill really big remnant fleets, the problem I was having was that even paragons get run over by the lump of cruisers and destroyers plus the radiant with 20% range advantage, so I didn't have time to try and clean up smaller stuff. You also start with 160 DP because of the officer disadvantage, so you need a strategy for capping points to get more ships in the game (and if you lose any, everything falls apart because you will not hold any points after the first 30 seconds). I think I've improved my fleet noticeably since I last tried though, so I might have to re-evaluate. I'm also planning on respeccing out of industry at some point, so that might give a boost to combat power.

I dunno, I've found a Paragon or two with a Legion XIV (dual Hurricane Mirv), Astral (dual Hurricane Mirv) or pair of Herons on escort seems to be fairly resilient.  I haven't tried multiple Ordos simultaneously yet though.  Two radiants is the highest I've done fleet wise.  I do slap ECCM on the Paragons to cut down on the ECM range penalty though, plus heavy armor/hardened shields for layered survivability.  The combination of missiles, fighters and the long range Paragon seems to be enough stacking threat to keep enemies from completely overwhelming them, and fighters still seem to be able to chase of frigates.  I also find myself chasing those things down during the first few minutes of engagement as well.

I've given up on carriers in the hardest fights, they feel like a liability to me now. The smaller fleets with one radiant are pretty comfortable usually, but even a big support fleet with one radiant is much harder than faction fleets. It's like 20+ level 6-8 officers with reckless/agressive personalities and heavy blasters/plasma canons running at you and not stopping unless you kill them. At least that was my experience. Anything not fast enough to get out of the way died before I could kill enough stuff. I'm not sure if odyssey is fast enough to run away from a radiant or able to keep remnant frigates from flanking.

Systems Expertise Odyssey can outrun a Radiant.  Especially with 0 flux boost if you drop shields. 40 vs 70 base speeds, and plasma burn is faster than a skimmer in a straight line.  Loadout determines how you engage, but typically I take some damage in the exchange venting - don't have the same depth of flux pool as the Radiant.  If I'm flanking it with another ship though, it doesn't last long since as soon as it's high flux, I can chase.  However, this big question is, are you pointing in the right direction at the right time.  Which as mentioned can make some approaches awkward or not possible.  I definitely feel the need for Auxiliary thrusters because of that.

Right now I'm feeling like I need a first wave of fast ships that can survive by running away to clear out frigates and destroyers (and remove the associated ECM bonus) before retreating and re-deploying with caps.

My Odyssey can essentially grab 1 point guaranteed - frigates/fast destroyers will back off or get demolished, which generally puts me at 200.  Which might be 2 Paragons + Doom + Odyssey.  Or some other combination.  If it's favorable points (one really close to my side), I can generally often get 220 or 240 if the close one is a comm relay.
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Aereto

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Re: Doom with skills: "I am growing stronger"
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2021, 11:45:55 PM »

Yeah. It's my first time using Doom in years, so I sometimes get to close to exploding ships and blow myself up, too.
As a fellow Doom pilot, I know that feel. I have enjoyed a variety of runs, but none have given me the same intensity as a Phase Commando sowing chaos in battle while I give orders to the rest of the fleet and keep the developing situation in my favor.

As I am familiarizing to the new mechanics, I have yet to use my preferred tactic of putting an enemy ship between the phase mines and the Paragon with 2 Tachyon Lances pointed at it. I still use antimatter blasters despite being definitely caught in the blast radius of a capital.
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TaLaR

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Re: Doom with skills: "I am growing stronger"
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2021, 11:49:44 PM »

I don't usually pilot Doom (prefer Afflictor), but can't you just install ITU to fix death explosion problem? Doom doesn't depend on narrow timing windows to bypass shields, you just put a lot of mines on the other side of enemy to convince them to move shield there, so increased projectile flight time is not an issue.

Btw, heavy industry does not require no atmosphere. You just get pollution from the nano-forge on any habitable world. +25% hazard could be tolerable, or you could build it on any non-habitable world.

Habitable heavy industry is still sub-optimal planet usage. Don't like to ruin world's long term potential like that.
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Doom with skills: "I am growing stronger"
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2021, 11:53:01 PM »

Crazy question, does adding integrated point defense turn anti-matter blasters into PD which then benefit from the +100 range elite Point Defense skill?  As that's like +25% range for an anti-matter blaster, going from 400 to 500 range.
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SCC

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Re: Doom with skills: "I am growing stronger"
« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2021, 12:10:18 AM »

To get ITU, I'd probably have to get rid of Reinforced Bulkheads. Seems doable and reduced hull shouldn't matter, if I'm less likely to take damage in the first place. But I have already defeated all that I wanted, so I don't need to check if ITU fit does any better.

intrinsic_parity

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Re: Doom with skills: "I am growing stronger"
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2021, 12:35:23 AM »

My view on PD is go heavy or don't bother, as you're just wasting soft flux and still taking the incoming ordinance anyways.  Especially solo, since light PD will get saturated anyways.

The PD does a decent job of handling Remnant fighters, for example.  The Hurricane I consider a toss up with the Locust.  If there's heavier fighter I'd drop it for locust definitely.  The Hurricane I've found makes a decent quick finisher as the enemy is pulling back overloaded if I haven't had a chance to hit it with plasma.  In 0.9.1a because of the tighter OP budget it was always locust, but this time I'm trying the Hurricane, for things like speeding up Onslaught killing.
Yeah I run 2 burst PD near engines specifically because screw salamanders, and then two wings of sparks. Maybe longbows are better, but I love having that screen of flux free PD. I feel like 2x plasma eats up all the flux too, but I guess heavy sabot spam makes up for that.

I dunno, I've found a Paragon or two with a Legion XIV (dual Hurricane Mirv), Astral (dual Hurricane Mirv) or pair of Herons on escort seems to be fairly resilient.  I haven't tried multiple Ordos simultaneously yet though.  Two radiants is the highest I've done fleet wise.  I do slap ECCM on the Paragons to cut down on the ECM range penalty though, plus heavy armor/hardened shields for layered survivability.  The combination of missiles, fighters and the long range Paragon seems to be enough stacking threat to keep enemies from completely overwhelming them, and fighters still seem to be able to chase of frigates.  I also find myself chasing those things down during the first few minutes of engagement as well.
I was definitely not using enough frigates at that point, and didn't understand the significance of capping points, so I think maybe I could do better now. I think I was also against the dreaded 5x tac lance radiant which was super punishing for anything not a paragon. You can't drop shields without taking a huge hit to hull instantly pretty much and you have to back off really far to vent. I think it might have been a particularly bad combo of enemy loadouts combined with my inexperience, because I definitely haven't had too much trouble with single raidant fleets recently. I did have built in hardened shields and heavy armor though. I think a doom is a much better investment of DP than any combination of carriers though. The mines are better anti frigate/fighters plus they are great at distracting enemies.

Right now I'm feeling like I need a first wave of fast ships that can survive by running away to clear out frigates and destroyers (and remove the associated ECM bonus) before retreating and re-deploying with caps.

My Odyssey can essentially grab 1 point guaranteed - frigates/fast destroyers will back off or get demolished, which generally puts me at 200.  Which might be 2 Paragons + Doom + Odyssey.  Or some other combination.  If it's favorable points (one really close to my side), I can generally often get 220 or 240 if the close one is a comm relay.
This strategy is entirely about trying to get a range advantage by clearing out the frigates with +6 ecm from gunnery implants. The DP isn't really the point.

Btw, heavy industry does not require no atmosphere. You just get pollution from the nano-forge on any habitable world. +25% hazard could be tolerable, or you could build it on any non-habitable world.

Habitable heavy industry is still sub-optimal planet usage. Don't like to ruin world's long term potential like that.
Idk, my 175 hazard cryo-volcanic world is making more than 400k per month right now (I don't even have the mining buff item lmao, although I'm not sure how much more I could dominate the market) and my 100 hazard tundra is making like 150k. I think hazard is a bit overrated, especially with beta cores and in-faction supply to cut all upkeep by a ton. Even if habitable is a no-go for you, heavy industry should definitely not go on your no-atmosphere world. Any cryo-volcanic/volcanic/gas giant etc. would be better. Your fuel has to go on a no-atmosphere to be worthwhile, and refining gets +2 production if it goes there (assuming you find the item, but I think it's one of the more common ones, I found 3 in my current campaign). If you want mining or commerce, then heavy industry isn't going there (and commerce is very strong IMO).

To be honest though, long term, I don't think any of this matters at all. You're going to be making more money than you know what to do with no matter what you do. I make more than 1 mil per month right now.   
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bobucles

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Re: Doom with skills: "I am growing stronger"
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2021, 05:53:15 AM »

You had me at 604 PPT.


I guess the hesitation on antimatter blasters is due to the vastly increased PPT efficiency of phase ships. The old DOOM could launch antimatters at every opportunity and still run out of PPT before AM ammo. Now there's PPT talents and double cloaking top speed, so far less PPT is burned in general. Also, it looks like ammo doesn't recharge in chain engagements, which makes preserving shots more important on that end.


I'm not really sure what the four burst PDs are for. Phase cloak and mines take care of most problems, and burst PD can't help while venting. I found good success in the old doom using 6 frontal AMs and supporting with 2 pilum launchers. The pilums are more defensive, since they soak up a few enemy attacks.

SCC

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Re: Doom with skills: "I am growing stronger"
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2021, 06:31:36 AM »

I was made aware of this, thanks to a friend:
Which means that, at the very least, Zig isn't worse than Doom.

Hellya

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Re: Doom with skills: "I am growing stronger"
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2021, 02:13:21 PM »

It was only a matter of time before everyone tried it. Since my original post, a few days after release of .95, nothing has changed in my mind. If anything, I feel stronger now that it is just unbalanced.

Not to be offensive, the OP is obviously a rusty or inexperienced Doom pilot. You can wipe the floor with that ship in under 2 minute with the right setup.
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SCC

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Re: Doom with skills: "I am growing stronger"
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2021, 02:16:01 PM »

Not to be offensive, the OP is obviously a rusty or inexperienced Doom pilot. You can wipe the floor with that ship in under 2 minute with the right setup.
The latter. I can count how many times I've used Doom in 0.9.1 on fingers of one hand.

oooh_senpai

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Re: Doom with skills: "I am growing stronger"
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2021, 04:16:07 AM »

I was made aware of this, thanks to a friend:
Which means that, at the very least, Zig isn't worse than Doom.
Doom can solo them with 2 times less dp cost (i personally can't, but there was a video of it), so you can handle more enemies in 70 dp with 2 dooms theoretically.
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SCC

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Re: Doom with skills: "I am growing stronger"
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2021, 02:13:56 PM »

This one is another endgame activity, so spoilers.
Successful run begins around 23:40.
https://youtu.be/I0fjxBsS2Uo
link with timestamp: https://youtu.be/I0fjxBsS2Uo?t=1417
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Tartiflette

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Re: Doom with skills: "I am growing stronger"
« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2021, 02:01:33 AM »

The worst part of the Doom is not that it is over-powered, but that it is so boooooring to play. The fights take ages due to the phase slowdown.
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