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[intrinsic_parity]

I think SO might be better as 50% extra dissipation with less of a PPT reduction.

On the previous patch, SO felt like you had a ton of offense plus a ton of speed, but no range and bad defense (because you had no spare OP for things like hardened shields, or heavy armor, or a bunch of caps etc.). Combat felt like trying to find the right opportunity to close the distance, and if you tried to come from the wrong angle or positioned wrong against a capital ship or cruiser, you would get messed up.

Now you get 3 free hullmods, so you can have amazing offense+speed+defense meaning you can just walk up to stuff without thinking and kill it. The only challenge is killing everything before PPT runs out which is a lot less interesting IMO.

[Alex]

Hmm - correct me if I'm wrong, but I think *most* of the issue stems from SO being free. And if you think about it, there are some handy reasons for why permanently building SO into a hull could, perhaps, be a bit ill-advised...

[intrinsic_parity]

Building in SO is definitely a bit limiting, but it's held up surprisingly well through late game in my experience. The new secret weapons are like custom made for SO ships too.

It's not that it's completely game breaking, I just think the hull mod would be more fun to use if the gap between you and your opponents wasn't so extreme, only balanced by a timer. It kinda takes the challenge out of piloting.

[Thaago]

I agree that built in SO is a bit much at the moment. A few story points on a super flagship is a pretty small price to pay even if it becomes obsolete endgame since it can carry the player all the way until then, at least in my opinion.

[Alex]

Yeah, what I meant was that perhaps there ought to be some *tangible reasons* why doing this isn't always a great idea - not that this is the state of affairs now. Right now it seems pretty clearly overpowered.

[Dex]

How about it also reduces max OP? to an amount where it still equals its current price, but such a whopping amount of free OP isnt, well, free.

[Soda Savvy]

What if SO was a ship system, or even a limited use toggle separate from the regular ship systems? War Emergency Power but for starships.

[Anvel]

Simply reduce its max cr or give a ship a high malfunction chance.

[Alex]

... reasons for why permanently building SO into a hull could, perhaps, be a bit ill-advised...

(I think I was being a bit too subtle here...)

[Wyvern]

I mean, by contrast here, I've built SO into two hulls, one of which I no longer use, and the other of which I actively regret and would tear it back out if I could. ...Hm. I have console commands. I should just go ahead and do that; it was an experiment that did not work out.

[intrinsic_parity]

I guess my points was that it's less interesting to me if SO is balanced as 'super strong and wrecks everything 1v1, but you run out of time' because it takes a lot of the challenge out of piloting. To me, adding malfunctions, or making it have less time doesn't really solve that problem. I would rather the ship be a little less strong so that it's a bit less of a cake walk while it's running, and then it also won't  need such extreme balance measures in other areas.

[Alex]

Hmm - doesn't a lot of the power spike of SO in this release come from the extra OP due to it being built-in? If you didn't build it in, it'd be less powerful without needing to adjust the stats of SO itself, no? My thinking is that "malfunctions" don't solve the problem by toning down the power of SO, they solve it by making it into something you really don't want to build in - sort of an in-fiction explanation for why you don't do it rather than just blocking it. Either way could be ok, though...

[Hiruma Kai]

... reasons for why permanently building SO into a hull could, perhaps, be a bit ill-advised...

(I think I was being a bit too subtle here...)

I mean adding ill-advised modification hullmod is an option (like how all Luddic ships have with their SO) when you permanently build in SO, but doesn't that just bring in more RNG mechanics regarding when and how things break down?  I'd assume that means preventing ill-advised from being removed with restoration as well on Luddic ships?

I'd almost suggest if a hull mod is above a certain value for the ship class, the maximum OP simply gets decreased.  Build in safety overrides on a cruiser, and maybe 15 off max OP (essentially making the maximum discount 30 OP).  This also means it can cleanly work with potential non-vanilla hull mods which are expensive but do crazy things, as opposed to having a targeted single hull mod fix.  It also means if you come up with ideas for other really expensive hull mods, you don't have to come up with individual targeted fixes.  Also, if you set the point low enough, then Hardened shields doesn't become must be built in on every high tech ship (at 30 points, it's pretty much a no brainer.  If max discount was effectively 25 OP on a cruiser, then other things might get built in).

Take my current SO aurora.  SO, Hardened Subsystems, Hardened Shields are all built in.  I also have expanded missile racks and Shield Conversion - Front.  If building in SO has a disadvantage worth more than 15 OP (which I consider ill-advised as meeting), I'm just going to build in Expanded Missiles and place SO normally.  It's a 25 OP difference, and goes in the right direction, but just feels like an indirect way to do it.

I admit, this does kinda turn story points explicitly into +25 or +30 OP points on a cruiser - but they kinda are that anyways right now.

[Dex]

... reasons for why permanently building SO into a hull could, perhaps, be a bit ill-advised...

(I think I was being a bit too subtle here...)

I mean adding ill-advised modification hullmod is an option (like how all Luddic ships have with their SO) when you permanently build in SO, but doesn't that just bring in more RNG mechanics regarding when and how things break down?  I'd assume that means preventing ill-advised from being removed with restoration as well on Luddic ships?

I'd almost suggest if a hull mod is above a certain value for the ship class, the maximum OP simply gets decreased.  Build in safety overrides on a cruiser, and maybe 15 off max OP (essentially making the maximum discount 30 OP).  This also means it can cleanly work with potential non-vanilla hull mods which are expensive but do crazy things, as opposed to having a targeted single hull mod fix.  It also means if you come up with ideas for other really expensive hull mods, you don't have to come up with individual targeted fixes.  Also, if you set the point low enough, then Hardened shields doesn't become must be built in on every high tech ship (at 30 points, it's pretty much a no brainer.  If max discount was effectively 25 OP on a cruiser, then other things might get built in).

Take my current SO aurora.  SO, Hardened Subsystems, Hardened Shields are all built in.  I also have expanded missile racks and Shield Conversion - Front.  If building in SO has a disadvantage worth more than 15 OP (which I consider ill-advised as meeting), I'm just going to build in Expanded Missiles and place SO normally.  It's a 25 OP difference, and goes in the right direction, but just feels like an indirect way to do it.

I admit, this does kinda turn story points explicitly into +25 or +30 OP points on a cruiser - but they kinda are that anyways right now.

....but that was my idea

[Hiruma Kai]

....but that was my idea

Woops, my bad.  I read through the thread too fast and missed that response.  I support Dex's suggestion fully.