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Author Topic: The lack of midline capitals  (Read 10930 times)

Jackundor

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Re: The lack of midline capitals
« Reply #120 on: February 02, 2022, 11:00:08 PM »

you know what? all of you are wrong and stupid. Midline doesn't lack capitals it has too many. Yeet the conquest
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Ahueh

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Re: The lack of midline capitals
« Reply #121 on: February 03, 2022, 10:29:16 AM »

When it comes to the modern factions, I think only the PL and SD rely on Conquests, right? And even then that is fine because their fleets aren't really build for big capital ships over cruisers and carrier groups anyway. (Perhaps the elite groups of the SD use those high tech battlecruisers? Assuming any normal in game faction uses those.)

Outside of that what are we really doing here? If it's suggestions that should probably be in the suggestions section. Otherwise Midline doesn't 'need' a capital as midline isn't a faction that is restricted to anything. The player has no restrictions and the AI factions are restricted for fun/lore purposes.

I'm down for another midline capital like I have suggested, or some wedge eagle or hammerhead design as others have suggested. (A capital hammerhead with hanger pods on the side? Like something from that Mayasuran Navy mod.) Otherwise what more is there really to say?

Off topic, but I think it would be cool if Alex added a bonus to incentivize a theme. Possibly separate from the skill/talent system, called "Cohesive Doctrine" or something wherein having similar ship types in your fleet gives (10% bonus damage fleet-wide?), scaling down as you add diversity between low, midline, and high tech ships.

Obviously if poorly balanced this could risk restricting fleet diversity - but if done correctly could actually open up new fleet ideas, perhaps even fleets that don't have a SO Hyperion in them...
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Morrokain

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Re: The lack of midline capitals
« Reply #122 on: February 03, 2022, 12:36:09 PM »

No. Why does midline need a battleship? It's based around the cruiser school and supposed to not bother as much with big capitals, if at all
"But Alex can do whatever he wants with the lore" - why should he? if there is to be a new midline capital then why would he do something that goes against established lore and that already exists in both Lowtech and Hightech instead of doing something more interesting?

Honestly, I think we need to stop treating techs as entities with strict rules based upon the lore or attached to any particular faction. The lore has changed so many times now that its not really a practical argument. Don't get me wrong, I love the the lore and think that it matters - probably more than those who are more dedicated to unique and interesting mechanics at any cost. However, when I think of "I want a midline capital" and the reasoning behind it I don't think its often related to any of that. Its because players want X ship in the form of the midline style.

What is that form? Well, for one, David would know more than me, but my take: sleeker than low tech but not as sleek as high tech. More hard angles than curves. A combination of ballistic and energy weapons (missile emphasis exists in all techs imo it just depends on the ship), middle of the road shields and armor and mostly not emphasizing one over the other, and various other unique attributes that visually and mechanically come together to make a ship "midline" vs "low tech" or "high tech".

Players can want a midline battleship, or super carrier, or w.e simply because they like the way midline ships look and fly. I don't think that's a bad reason in and of itself and so I think the argument that midline doesn't need a battleship or that it aligns with the cruiser/carrier school of thought, etc, etc is an argument that doesn't really hold up upon careful scrutiny. Not only has the lore more often changed to match the game than the game change to match the lore (in fact I'm not sure the reverse has ever been the case), but the lore is also purposely vague or referencing historical records of the Domain that could be questionable, etc, that specifically exists to allow for exceptions and flexibility in ship design.

The fact of the matter is that any ship could be considered any tech and the lore could spin it that way if it wanted to. Imagine, for instance, an experimental low tech ship with really good shields and energy weapons. "It was the first ship of its kind back in the day, and the Domain took it under its wing and massed produced it only for it to fall into obscurity throughout the cycles... that was until the Collapse... until Kanta herself plundered the lost interior of station 0237a of the blah blah nebula and it was slowly distributed once again into the hungry maw of the desperate masses in need of starship power."

I mean, I do get that at some point the lore could lose all sense of cohesion if you make too many exceptions all over the place, but I think that we are a far cry from that point.

The issue with no existing gameplay niche? That's a more reasonable argument. I think that should be the primary focus of the discussion. Lets find a good niche! Or, failing that, find a way to make the ship feel different even if its filling the same role as, say, the Paragon, or Astral, or Onslaught. Even ships fulfilling similar roles can still feel different to pilot or build for the AI. I think that should be the goal: getting an idea to that point.

(Also I think the Conquest is fine as a cruiser killer and not an anti-battleship ship. That in and of itself is a useful niche to have in a fleet after all!)
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Turbulator

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Re: The lack of midline capitals
« Reply #123 on: February 09, 2022, 01:11:53 PM »

My two cents for a Midline capital class. To me the Champion is a mashup of a Sunder and Eagle so for a capital I'd just want a doubling of this excluding the large missile mounts.

Two Large hybrid hardpoint mounts with many, many medium universal turrets and maybe a hanger bay for good measure. A star destroyer-esque bigger brother for all the Midline cruisers. The large mounts would be embedded much further back, either side of the core of the ship such that you would have difficulty targetting anything smaller that a cruiser up close with both but with all the medium turrets, shouldn't be a problem 1v1. Could out disco the Paragon in all but punch.

For a system... Siege Mode anyone? For the uninitiated, plants itself down like a station losing all mobility for much greater range, extra damage and extremely high turn rate and turn acceleration until it reverts back to normal mode. Would be able to shoot over allies. Transforming either way is costly timewise and it can't do anything during that period. I do suggest it somewhat as a joke as I haven't given it much thought but it could fulfill that want for uniqueness.

My thinking was more that it would be the ultimate all rounder for its class which I guess would go against that so idk, lateral burn acceleration boosts for weaving left and right? Higher weapon fire travel speed and firing rate? Greater number of charges and higher recharge rate? Would quite like to blast things away with two Autopulse lasers on steroids...

Personally don't understand the purpose of the Conquest. I haven't had any success using it and really dislike how it handles so a new Midline capital would be very welcome from me.
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Supraluminal

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Re: The lack of midline capitals
« Reply #124 on: February 09, 2022, 02:34:03 PM »

The only thing I particularly like the Conquest for is Gauss Cannon sniping. It's got the mounts, flux, and OP to run 2 Gauss Cannons, and the speed to keep its distance from most major threats. The Atlas II is a tempting alternative with Accelerated Ammo Feeder, but it's just too awkward to fit and too fragile even for a back-line sniper. The Conquest isn't particularly durable either, but it's more robust than the AII at least.

You can make a Conquest that's more of a skirmisher, like the Mjolnir-based loadout in the sim. For my money, though, it's not quite fast or tough enough for that job. I'd rather use an Odyssey if I need a capital in that role, or else a couple of cruisers for the same DP.

As for a theoretical new midline capital: I think there's room for another capital battlecarrier, one that sits between the Legion and the Odyssey. I'd imagine something close to the Conquest for speed and durability, but with 3 or 4 fighter bays and correspondingly fewer weapon mounts. It would be a more mobile, less tanky ship than the Legion, more fighter-focused than the Odyssey, and more combat-capable than the Astral. Something like that would make a good generalist/second-line ship, able to respond to emergencies and help plug holes in the line, or support pushes by friendly front-line ships. Not sure what the right ship system would be - I guess Maneuvering Jets would be on-brand for midline and fit the role well.
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Salter

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Re: The lack of midline capitals
« Reply #125 on: February 09, 2022, 03:31:03 PM »

My two cents for a Midline capital class. To me the Champion is a mashup of a Sunder and Eagle so for a capital I'd just want a doubling of this excluding the large missile mounts.

Two Large hybrid hardpoint mounts with many, many medium universal turrets and maybe a hanger bay for good measure. A star destroyer-esque bigger brother for all the Midline cruisers. The large mounts would be embedded much further back, either side of the core of the ship such that you would have difficulty targetting anything smaller that a cruiser up close with both but with all the medium turrets, shouldn't be a problem 1v1. Could out disco the Paragon in all but punch.

For a system... Siege Mode anyone? For the uninitiated, plants itself down like a station losing all mobility for much greater range, extra damage and extremely high turn rate and turn acceleration until it reverts back to normal mode. Would be able to shoot over allies. Transforming either way is costly timewise and it can't do anything during that period. I do suggest it somewhat as a joke as I haven't given it much thought but it could fulfill that want for uniqueness.

My thinking was more that it would be the ultimate all rounder for its class which I guess would go against that so idk, lateral burn acceleration boosts for weaving left and right? Higher weapon fire travel speed and firing rate? Greater number of charges and higher recharge rate? Would quite like to blast things away with two Autopulse lasers on steroids...

Personally don't understand the purpose of the Conquest. I haven't had any success using it and really dislike how it handles so a new Midline capital would be very welcome from me.

Star Destoyer's always a neat design. Maybe give it a gravitational anchor or something to pull in smaller ships, that way it doesnt need to move in too far to start picking ships apart. I would give it 4 fighter bays or something too.
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Serenitis

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Re: The lack of midline capitals
« Reply #126 on: February 10, 2022, 01:54:01 AM »

And the wheel turns again...
https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=19283.0

There's some great ideas in this thread tho.
Lot's of mod fodder if nothing else.
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