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Author Topic: The Frigate Bias  (Read 27262 times)

Argentj

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #105 on: May 13, 2021, 09:35:56 AM »

Spoiler
We can agree to disagree.

Having an overpowered mechanic in a game that a player must arbitrarily avoid if they don't want to destroy the balance detracts from the enjoyment of the game. It's like having a big flashing 'Double power?' button on the refit screen at all times for example. 'But you can just not use it, no drawback!!' isn't really a convincing argument. It destroys immersion even if it is intentionally not used. Similarly with storypoint disengage ('magic your way out of this battle?'). It hurts the game even if you don't use it.

The drawbacks to SO are comparatively minor and can be bypassed. PPT by just retreating when it's low and bringing something else in, no biggie, and in many instances this doesn't apply because things are dead. Range by building short range setups (which you always do) that don't care about range penalties. The whole point of SO is to get right up in the face of the enemy with your broken flux and speed and smash them, so a range penalty is lul.

My issue with SO is that it completely changes the stats and capabilities of ships in an arbitrary and senseless way. If you are happy playing with that great but I can't agree it's a good addition to the game.
[close]

Again:  I've laid out how it is NOT overpowered, repeatedly, taking most of your points and not getting many answers back.   

The new one is 'story point disengage'.  To that I say:  go ahead.  Then you won't have that story point for s-mods, better rewards, mentoring officers, AI inspections, etc.  It in an of itself is a good system because the opportunity cost is innate.  If you blow your story points saving yourself from SO mistakes you're behind the curve otherwise.  Good.  And if you have to blow story points to not die, maybe . . . SO isn't as hype as people claim?
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Draba

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #106 on: May 13, 2021, 10:20:32 AM »

And you dodged the main thrust of my post:  Safety Overrides does not impact other play styles.  The only opportunity cost of not using safety overrrides is:  not using safety overrides.
This is a very commonly made argument for SP games, and the counterpoints are always the same.
Even those games need to have some kind of balance, some options being clearly better than others take away interesting decisions and reduce overall variety.
Note that I didn't write that SO is overpowered, but I do not think it fits into the game well. The "it's a SP/sandbox game, anything goes no nerfs" sentiment does lead to powercreep and things being overpowered.

Enemies do use SO
Ships can punch harder and move much faster for the same DP.
Suddenly lots of hulls that would be fine otherwise are too slow, or their defenses can't hold up anymore. Can shrink the pool of ships that are generally useful.
Enemy doesn't really care about the logistics downside, and you either have to fight against them with their big bonuses or wait PPT out if you have the fleet for it (boring).

Enemies have to be prepared for SO
Since it's in the game the ships you are fighting against have to be adjusted with SO in mind.
Otherwise the higher peak power overridden ships just roll them over and the game is boring with a clear solution.
Depending on implementation that can possibly dk over some "conventional" setups.


Keep in mind your very first post on the forums was essentially "they obviously forgot about this here argument everybody have seen a million times".
You also use your own preference as an absolute measure for fun.
That'll obviously rub some people the wrong way, nothing wrong with simply stating you prefer having it the game because for you it gives variety.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 10:25:46 AM by Draba »
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Locklave

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #107 on: May 13, 2021, 02:47:50 PM »

Last time I checked the speed bonus is a flat value? Also ships of a certain DP tend to have similar flux venting stats which SO doubles. It's not like maximum flux vent for similar class ships varies widely, outside mods like Scy nation which is a very exceptional case. Low-tech has slightly lower venting which, in a vacuum, you can say generally get less benefit from this portion of SO. However they are slower and the speed boost is flat, so they get more benefit, again in a vacuum, from this part.

SO seems to have a particularly broken interaction with the Hyperion due to the ship's system (I wouldn't know because I don't abuse SO). However the Hyperion is ridiculous without SO too. I think this kind of analysis is a red herring. SO is broken and gives an unexplainable magical ultra performance boost which enables you to outpower ships of higher classes and outspeed ships of lower classes at the same time.

Shouldn't be in the game, jmo.
Hyperion shouldn't be a frigate, I have no clue what Alex was thinking with that.

You are correct about speed, I should have mentioned that. I was mainly speaking of flux dissipation scaling, since Midline/High tech have far stronger flux abilities. I agree with you on the rest. SO I think has a place but how it's interacting with the ships needs to be more controlled. In it's current form it's extremely likely to create imbalance or amplify it.

The Tempest is also another outlier.

Pretty sure my previous post dismantled this strawman pretty hard.  Would you care to elaborate in light of that address?

His statement, directed in a response towards my post, isn't a strawman in any way.

Again:  I've laid out how it is NOT overpowered, repeatedly, taking most of your points and not getting many answers back.

You seem to think your opinions should hold as much weight with strangers as they do with you.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 02:57:04 PM by Locklave »
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Badger

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #108 on: May 13, 2021, 04:54:43 PM »

Again:  I've laid out how it is NOT overpowered, repeatedly, taking most of your points and not getting many answers back.

And (again) I've laid out how it is overpowered, repeatedly, as have others. If you disagree that's fine, but I have addressed your points re no drawbacks to ignoring it if you don't like it (there are), and supposed drawbacks to using it (there aren't, or they are relatively very minor / easily rendered irrelevant).

This is a very commonly made argument for SP games, and the counterpoints are always the same.

Yup.

You seem to think your opinions should hold as much weight with strangers as they do with you.

 ;D
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HUcast

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #109 on: May 13, 2021, 04:55:02 PM »

To throw my hat into the ring, I think safety overrides is too game changing for a single hullmod. Think about it, everyone has been arguing about if or not it breaks the balance of the game over it's knee. That's not what the argument should be about. It's a single hullmod, which SHOULD just partially increase or modify a single aspect of the ship. Heavy armor is far more expensive, and all it does is increase armor by around 20-30%, boosting a single attribute in exchange for dp, thus allowing a player to fine tune their ship closer to their playstyle. Safety overrides is not a hullmod in this manner, it completely redefines a ship in it's entirety. For this reason, I think the obvious choice would be separating it's effects into several other hullmods.

1. Increased dissipation for reduced range
The dissipation increase would be halved and split with number 2 below and reduced with ship size, something like 50/35/25/15% increase in dissipation for a max range reduction of 500/650/800/900 units.

2. Increased dissipation for reduced peak active time and cr degradation

This would be the second half of the dissipation increase, spread over two hullmods for how obviously strong it is. Dissipation increase would be the same as 1. With the penalty of nearly halfed or more peak time.

3. No venting for Increased speed.
These effects are the least game changing, in my opinion, and would be better off separate.

I think dividing up safety override in this manner though my own suggestions may not be perfect, is the optimal solution. As it stands SO is unlike any other hullmod for how MUCH it does, making balance very difficult.


EDIT: said cr instead of peak active time and cr degradation.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 05:10:26 PM by HUcast »
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Badger

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #110 on: May 13, 2021, 05:12:50 PM »

I could get behind something like this idea ^, assuming tuning for balance, if the bonuses weren't huge to the extent they allowed the ship to outperform higher/lower ship classes in power/speed if the base ship didn't already. Good suggestion.
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Locklave

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #111 on: May 14, 2021, 02:30:18 AM »

To throw my hat into the ring, I think safety overrides is too game changing for a single hullmod. Think about it, everyone has been arguing about if or not it breaks the balance of the game over it's knee. That's not what the argument should be about. It's a single hullmod, which SHOULD just partially increase or modify a single aspect of the ship. Heavy armor is far more expensive, and all it does is increase armor by around 20-30%, boosting a single attribute in exchange for dp, thus allowing a player to fine tune their ship closer to their playstyle. Safety overrides is not a hullmod in this manner, it completely redefines a ship in it's entirety. For this reason, I think the obvious choice would be separating it's effects into several other hullmods.

Couldn't agree more with this thinking.
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Satirical

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #112 on: May 14, 2021, 12:47:15 PM »

just make safety overrides turn ur ship into a pather ship (which has random malfunctions) rename it to pather modifications and disable it on high tech ships

make a new safety overrides for high tech with less attributes (maybe only 30% instead of 50% dissipation and no constant 0 flux boost) and name it safety overrides
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Warnoise

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #113 on: May 14, 2021, 09:01:53 PM »

just make safety overrides turn ur ship into a pather ship (which has random malfunctions) rename it to pather modifications and disable it on high tech ships

make a new safety overrides for high tech with less attributes (maybe only 30% instead of 50% dissipation and no constant 0 flux boost) and name it safety overrides

Nobody would you use it if that happens because the pather debuff is brutal. I am now doing a pather playthrough and when half of your weapons get disabled (sometimes a permanent disable means the weapon is gone for the whole battle) you lose the battle
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SCC

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #114 on: May 15, 2021, 06:55:20 AM »

I think others could more easily chime in to the discussion, if you made a new thread to discuss SO.

Locklave

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #115 on: May 15, 2021, 09:07:02 AM »

I think others could more easily chime in to the discussion, if you made a new thread to discuss SO.

I think the problem every thread is having is that too many of these issues are intersecting. An SO thread will end up talking about Frigates being OP now.

Put bluntly Alex conflated multiple overlapping problems with balance in this patch.

1. Frigates skill Wolfpack is too strong
2. High tech ships are too strong
2a. Hyperion is a cruiser (I don't care what he tagged it) getting all 1/2/3/4
3. SO is too strong
4. Smaller ship captain bonuses are too strong
5. 1/2/3/4 all create the conflation

It's impossible to address any of this in depth without getting into those issues. It's a total mess.
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JUDGE! slowpersun

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #116 on: May 20, 2021, 03:54:01 AM »

I think others could more easily chime in to the discussion, if you made a new thread to discuss SO.

I think the problem every thread is having is that too many of these issues are intersecting. An SO thread will end up talking about Frigates being OP now.

Put bluntly Alex conflated multiple overlapping problems with balance in this patch.

1. Frigates skill Wolfpack is too strong
2. High tech ships are too strong
2a. Hyperion is a cruiser (I don't care what he tagged it) getting all 1/2/3/4
3. SO is too strong
4. Smaller ship captain bonuses are too strong
5. 1/2/3/4 all create the conflation

It's impossible to address any of this in depth without getting into those issues. It's a total mess.

I think we should all assume that a REAL balance patch will be dropped in the near future (ie, 0.95b at a minimum), so some of this will change.  But yeah, won't change without airing grievances.  Still, dunno how much of these complaints are valid on their own, and how much of the many issues with Frigates cannot be severed from the DP changes linked to tactical objectives that essentially force frigate use to capture the flag first...
« Last Edit: May 20, 2021, 03:55:52 AM by slowpersun »
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Drazan

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #117 on: May 20, 2021, 04:40:19 PM »

I dont think it is a problem that you have to use frigates to capture point at the begining of the battle, i think its a good mechanic, beacuse you shall use all the shiptypes in a battle. But the problem is that frigates do more than this, they absolutely wreck destroyers and cruisrers, and sometimes even capitals, this should not be.
Comparing the logistical profile of a capital and a frigate, a capital should be equal to about 5 frigates (or perhaps even more, as they also have slower max burn, more crew, etc.)
Frigates should be fast and good at point capture, capitals should be good at wrecking face
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Warnoise

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #118 on: May 20, 2021, 07:10:33 PM »

I think it is a decent balance to see frigates being able to swarm and kill capitals. However, a frigate shouldn't be able to outdamage or outflux a capital in 1v1 face to face fight.
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torbes

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #119 on: May 20, 2021, 07:41:45 PM »

I dont think it is a problem that you have to use frigates to capture point at the begining of the battle, i think its a good mechanic, beacuse you shall use all the shiptypes in a battle. But the problem is that frigates do more than this, they absolutely wreck destroyers and cruisrers, and sometimes even capitals, this should not be.


Also...why? i don't think it's bad to have an early game ship class fall off in end game.

i'd rather see the DP bonus be removed from capture points and the bonuses for the points be more varied and powerful. I.E CR recovery, defensive bonuses, even ammo/missle regen. Lots of possibilities outside of the current system which is always deploy 3-4 frigates to cap for 40+ extra DP. could make certain points have range limits, give bonuses for capturing multiple points or scaling over time. again, lots of cool stuff is possible imho.
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