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Author Topic: The Frigate Bias  (Read 27233 times)

Warnoise

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #90 on: May 12, 2021, 09:14:50 PM »

High-tech ships shouldn't be able to equip Safety override.

Thinking of it logically, high-tech ships are the cream of the crop in terms of technology so they shouldn't  be modified via "crude" hullmods like safety override.

I think instead of tweaking numbers (which most of the time goes wrong), making hullmods that can only be equipped on Low-tech ships is a good step towards a balanced gameplay between different techs.

Also, Alex, please, do something about burn drive, that thing is simply way outdated in the current meta.
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JUDGE! slowpersun

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #91 on: May 12, 2021, 09:52:26 PM »

High-tech ships shouldn't be able to equip Safety override.

Thinking of it logically, high-tech ships are the cream of the crop in terms of technology so they shouldn't  be modified via "crude" hullmods like safety override.

I think instead of tweaking numbers (which most of the time goes wrong), making hullmods that can only be equipped on Low-tech ships is a good step towards a balanced gameplay between different techs.

Also, Alex, please, do something about burn drive, that thing is simply way outdated in the current meta.

This suggestions is actually pretty legit, would be cool to limit certain hull mods to ship type (so no SO for high-tech ships, but they get access some cool shield and/or flux efficiency mods instead).  I guess then mid-grade ships get some mod overlap between the two, and maybe some extra unique armor mod (or I guess access to Legion XIV mod would be lazy solution).  Although maybe SO not the best example, since it's apparently going to get a complete overhaul/change at some point in the near future... but still like the idea.  Especially now that SP can add permanent hullmods, would be nice to create better variety between ship types.

Regarding OP, I don't agree with what was changed regarding frigates in the latest patch (especially how frigate use related to DP and waypoint capture), but at least Alex is trying something... even if it's the wrong thing.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 09:55:18 PM by slowpersun »
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Null Ganymede

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #92 on: May 13, 2021, 12:06:19 AM »

High vs low tech isn't a technology level, but a design philosophy.

Overly-complicated shield and weapon systems, vs armor plating around a big cannon. Innovation versus fundamentals. Complexity versus elegance.

If it was truly high-tech, it would have access to better damage types than just varying amounts of Energy.
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Locklave

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #93 on: May 13, 2021, 01:56:07 AM »

High-tech ships shouldn't be able to equip Safety override.

Thinking of it logically, high-tech ships are the cream of the crop in terms of technology so they shouldn't  be modified via "crude" hullmods like safety override.

I think instead of tweaking numbers (which most of the time goes wrong), making hullmods that can only be equipped on Low-tech ships is a good step towards a balanced gameplay between different techs.

Also, Alex, please, do something about burn drive, that thing is simply way outdated in the current meta.

That seems very logical and would be a balanced solution.

Burn drive also needs to be updated to something the AI can effectively use.

Great post, great ideas.
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Argentj

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #94 on: May 13, 2021, 04:30:46 AM »

Please don't do anything at all about Safety Overrides.  If anything, thanks to the double nerf bat bigger hulls got this patch, it needs a buff on them.  Better would be tweaking how and why frigate spam is good, however.

The reason I say this is that most of the posters here are missing a key point about Starsector:  it is a single player game.  We do not need to parrot the foolish behavior of AAA overlords that ruin their own games.  Thus, anything that improves the FUN people have playing it with the key caveat that it doesn't impede other forms of fun, is a wholesale win.  SO is a wholesale win for players who enjoy it. 

On the topic of this post:  the frigate meta is the opposite.  It does improve the fun of frigate players, but for those who don't care for them or enjoy one of the myriad other ways to play, the AI uses it against you and reduces your fun.  You are pushed to embrace this against other forms and thus it is a bad thing. 

The guilty party here is things like Target Analysis[combat].  Why?  Every AI ship has it, thus all capitals now take +20% more damage, period.  And why do you take a capital flagship?  At least one of the primary reasons is to be more tanky and feel more powerful.  Getting ripped apart by a half dozen gnats doesn't feel powerful or tanky. 

I like the direction .95 is going:  more quests, more story, more versatility.  But it is a first draft, and needs a polish round.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 04:39:44 AM by Argentj »
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Draba

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #95 on: May 13, 2021, 05:24:21 AM »

Show of hands, who thinks safety overrides are not high impact on the following ships:
- Eagle
- Falcon
- Sunder
- Hammerhead
- Brawler
None of those are high tech, all of them smashes face.

The reason I say this is that most of the posters here are missing a key point about Starsector:  it is a single player game.  We do not need to parrot the foolish behavior of AAA overlords that ruin their own games.  Thus, anything that improves the FUN people have playing it with the key caveat that it doesn't impede other forms of fun, is a wholesale win.  SO is a wholesale win for players who enjoy it. 
No, most posters didn't miss it's singleplayer.
Safe to say most people also saw your "it's a sandbox, powercreep is fun, don't touch my overpowered things" post a million times already.

Just describe why you like it, and that you prefer having it the game.
That's what we did, the other way around. Kinda moot since it's very unlikely to be removed, but posting an opinion doesn't hurt.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 05:26:03 AM by Draba »
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Argentj

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #96 on: May 13, 2021, 05:33:37 AM »

Spoiler
Show of hands, who thinks safety overrides are not high impact on the following ships:
- Eagle
- Falcon
- Sunder
- Hammerhead
- Brawler
None of those are high tech, all of them smashes face.

Quote from: Argentj on Today at 04:30:46 AM

    The reason I say this is that most of the posters here are missing a key point about Starsector:  it is a single player game.  We do not need to parrot the foolish behavior of AAA overlords that ruin their own games.  Thus, anything that improves the FUN people have playing it with the key caveat that it doesn't impede other forms of fun, is a wholesale win.  SO is a wholesale win for players who enjoy it.

No, most posters didn't miss it's singleplayer.
Safe to say most people also saw your "it's a sandbox, powercreep is fun, don't touch my overpowered things" post a million times already.

Just describe why you like it, and that you prefer having it the game.
That's what we did, the other way around. Kinda moot since it's very unlikely to be removed, but posting an opinion doesn't hurt.
[close]

Those in glass houses . . . you just did exactly what you accuse me of doing and imply is bad behavior.  Shame.  And if they didn't miss it(single player and fun):  why would this(so) ever be a point of contention?

And you dodged the main thrust of my post:  Safety Overrides does not impact other play styles.  The only opportunity cost of not using safety overrrides is:  not using safety overrides.  As such removing it or 'nerfing' it is actually of net detriment to the game as a whole.  You took away some not insignificant % of the player base's fun but gave them nothing in return.

But lets hit up on SO in general:  is it actually 'power creep'?  In short:  no.   It does exactly what the label says:  for a 30 second or so window, you'll be strong.  After that, you'll be fodder.   And if you think you'll just slap on hardened subsystems, oh, and that skill that gives extend operating time, oh another  . . .  Before you know you, you're angling a large portion of S-mods, OP, and skill points all to making it work 'well.' 

Because if you don't, you're a paper tiger.  You get 1, short deployment.  Screw up on a strategic scale and you're dead because the second Ordo or full stack pirate group is going to wipe the system with your feeble, 0 CR self.

« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 05:54:11 AM by Argentj »
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Megas

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #97 on: May 13, 2021, 05:46:07 AM »

On the topic of this post:  the frigate meta is the opposite.  It does improve the fun of frigate players, but for those who don't care for them or enjoy one of the myriad other ways to play, the AI uses it against you and reduces your fun.  You are pushed to embrace this against other forms and thus it is a bad thing. 
I felt pushed to Wolfpack Tactics (and maybe more Leadership) to use frigates well since the game favors frigates.  The only reason I could resist the pull is phase ship cheese (and my endgame fleet was nearly all phase ships) and Alex changing ECM.

If I had to get Leadership to compete, that meant giving up Industry and/or Combat 4 and 5 just to fit Wolfpack Tactics.  My build was 5/0/5/5.  If I wanted to dump Industry later, I would consider 5/0/10/0.
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SCC

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #98 on: May 13, 2021, 06:05:57 AM »

SO could be impacting other players negatively, if the game is balanced around it, so you have to use it or perish. I will have to play a non-high-tech campaign to see if it's generally the case, but for high-tech, I didn't really feel the need to use it.

Badger

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #99 on: May 13, 2021, 06:06:52 AM »

I don't really agree but I am very new so feel free to point out any errors. I'm not saying high-tech being too strong (or low-tech being too weak) is not an issue, but SO can be considered in isolation.

You can't assess in isolation because it scales existing values. The ship mechanics and stats are required variables to gauge it's effect.  It's not flat bonuses by size, like Heavy armor mod, it's scaling existing stats on a multiplier. Now that I think about it, SO shouldn't be a multiplier, it should be a flat value based on size.

Last time I checked the speed bonus is a flat value? Also ships of a certain DP tend to have similar flux venting stats which SO doubles. It's not like maximum flux vent for similar class ships varies widely, outside mods like Scy nation which is a very exceptional case. Low-tech has slightly lower venting which, in a vacuum, you can say generally get less benefit from this portion of SO. However they are slower and the speed boost is flat, so they get more benefit, again in a vacuum, from this part.

SO seems to have a particularly broken interaction with the Hyperion due to the ship's system (I wouldn't know because I don't abuse SO). However the Hyperion is ridiculous without SO too. I think this kind of analysis is a red herring. SO is broken and gives an unexplainable magical ultra performance boost which enables you to outpower ships of higher classes and outspeed ships of lower classes at the same time.

Shouldn't be in the game, jmo.
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Argentj

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #100 on: May 13, 2021, 06:09:32 AM »

SO could be impacting other players negatively, if the game is balanced around it, so you have to use it or perish. I will have to play a non-high-tech campaign to see if it's generally the case, but for high-tech, I didn't really feel the need to use it.

Strong point!

I have a couple hundred in .9 and above, and as far as I can tell:  the game is not balanced around it.  Midline is crazy strong in zone of control builds/fire arc style fleets.  I deleted juuuust as hard using them without SO.  I think low tech is . . . .in a weird place over all.  I had a lot of real hit and miss attempts.  This to me would suggest Low Tech needs a little love (or I'm not grasping the key strategy of fleets in the low tech group).
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Argentj

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #101 on: May 13, 2021, 06:11:12 AM »

Spoiler
I don't really agree but I am very new so feel free to point out any errors. I'm not saying high-tech being too strong (or low-tech being too weak) is not an issue, but SO can be considered in isolation.

You can't assess in isolation because it scales existing values. The ship mechanics and stats are required variables to gauge it's effect.  It's not flat bonuses by size, like Heavy armor mod, it's scaling existing stats on a multiplier. Now that I think about it, SO shouldn't be a multiplier, it should be a flat value based on size.

Last time I checked the speed bonus is a flat value? Also ships of a certain DP tend to have similar flux venting stats which SO doubles. It's not like maximum flux vent for similar class ships varies widely, outside mods like Scy nation which is a very exceptional case. Low-tech has slightly lower venting which, in a vacuum, you can say generally get less benefit from this portion of SO. However they are slower and the speed boost is flat, so they get more benefit, again in a vacuum, from this part.

SO seems to have a particularly broken interaction with the Hyperion due to the ship's system (I wouldn't know because I don't abuse SO). However the Hyperion is ridiculous without SO too. I think this kind of analysis is a red herring. SO is broken and gives an unexplainable magical ultra performance boost which enables you to outpower ships of higher classes and outspeed ships of lower classes at the same time.

Shouldn't be in the game, jmo.
[close]

Pretty sure my previous post dismantled this strawman pretty hard.  Would you care to elaborate in light of that address?
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Badger

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #102 on: May 13, 2021, 06:25:21 AM »

Pretty sure my previous post dismantled this strawman pretty hard.  Would you care to elaborate in light of that address?

Not sure what you are referring to. Stuff can work without SO, therefore SO is balanced?
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Argentj

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #103 on: May 13, 2021, 06:30:20 AM »

That's just one part:  many ships work better without it, yes.  The others are that it comes with user opportunity costs, situational difficulties, and really suffers in protracted engagements of any sort (be it a long 1 map battle or consecutive battles).  If you want to use SO and not blunder into death frequently, you've got to orient your character, ship design, fleet composition, and strategic engagement choices.  If SO hasn't killed you, you aren't playing ironman.


In other words, its not just an 'I win' button.  There's real drawbacks that make it internally feel good as well as externally.  Further, removing it deletes fun/a playstyle from the game and doesn't give any back leading to a net detriment.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 06:33:24 AM by Argentj »
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Badger

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #104 on: May 13, 2021, 06:47:34 AM »

We can agree to disagree.

Having an overpowered mechanic in a game that a player must arbitrarily avoid if they don't want to destroy the balance detracts from the enjoyment of the game. It's like having a big flashing 'Double power?' button on the refit screen at all times for example. 'But you can just not use it, no drawback!!' isn't really a convincing argument. It destroys immersion even if it is intentionally not used. Similarly with storypoint disengage ('magic your way out of this battle?'). It hurts the game even if you don't use it.

The drawbacks to SO are comparatively minor and can be bypassed. PPT by just retreating when it's low and bringing something else in, no biggie, and in many instances this doesn't apply because things are dead. Range by building short range setups (which you always do) that don't care about range penalties. The whole point of SO is to get right up in the face of the enemy with your broken flux and speed and smash them, so a range penalty is lul.

My issue with SO is that it completely changes the stats and capabilities of ships in an arbitrary and senseless way. If you are happy playing with that great but I can't agree it's a good addition to the game.



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