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Author Topic: The Frigate Bias  (Read 27265 times)

Badger

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #75 on: May 12, 2021, 12:32:42 AM »

Just two cents on the SO tangent -

They don't make any sense (hmm, I wonder what happens when I disable the safeties on this, maybe I could squeeze out a bit more performance. Hey I have double the power output! Guess those regulations are a tad excessive).

They throw the whole combat balance totally off by suddenly making cruisers outperform capitals in raw flux while flying like frigates.

The drawback of 'it doesn't last long' doesn't apply in 90% of situation and in the other 10% you just use something else - 'drawback' bypassed. Putting overpowered things on timers has never been a good way to balance anything in games I have found.

Basically they should be removed or kept on as in-built only on certain specific ships (Luddic Path). Jmo of course  :)
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SonnaBanana

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #76 on: May 12, 2021, 12:38:00 AM »

No, we need weapons and systems which attack CR!  :P
Perhaps EMP and overloads should do for that?
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Badger

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #77 on: May 12, 2021, 01:13:41 AM »

I don't think that would solve much. First you would need to hit armor or overload the ship and that is made much more difficult by the ship having SO in the first place. Only other way would be to have some kind of magic-wand CR reducer that penetrated shields which would be OP and boring in itself. Landing a hit and 'reducing CR' is not really too satisfying compared to hitting for damage. I suspect it would rarely be worth doing in preference to damage. You could add it as a side-benefit to weapons like EMP but I don't think CR reduction makes sense as something separate from damage. I am not sure what a weapon with this property would be supposed to be doing lore wise.

I think the problem is with SO itself. When you put SO on a ship, you are not so much customizing it as making a different ship. Just my personal preference but when I see a capital ship I want to be quite confident that it has more power output and is tankier than a cruiser, and not less so because the captain of the cruiser has 'overridden the safeties'.
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Locklave

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #78 on: May 12, 2021, 02:29:25 AM »

They throw the whole combat balance totally off by suddenly making cruisers outperform capitals in raw flux while flying like frigates.

I just feel like it needs to be said that doing this on a low tech Cruiser does not do this. This entire safety override problem is one engineered by making nearly all high tech overtuned/overpowered.

Put SO on a Hyperion as compared to a Lasher. Which of those is suddenly able to kill everything. Again Fury vs Dominator, same thing again. Dominator with SO lol. The entire problem with SO is it buffs everything High tech is already overpower in. High tech specifically is the problem, not SO. SO is being blamed for making overpowered ships excessively overpowered, I mean it does scale existing numbers.

I have no clue why the actual issue doesn't get addressed.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 02:36:31 AM by Locklave »
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Warnoise

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #79 on: May 12, 2021, 03:10:15 AM »

They throw the whole combat balance totally off by suddenly making cruisers outperform capitals in raw flux while flying like frigates.

I just feel like it needs to be said that doing this on a low tech Cruiser does not do this. This entire safety override problem is one engineered by making nearly all high tech overtuned/overpowered.

Put SO on a Hyperion as compared to a Lasher. Which of those is suddenly able to kill everything. Again Fury vs Dominator, same thing again. Dominator with SO lol. The entire problem with SO is it buffs everything High tech is already overpower in. High tech specifically is the problem, not SO. SO is being blamed for making overpowered ships excessively overpowered, I mean it does scale existing numbers.

I have no clue why the actual issue doesn't get addressed.

This +1000

Since the AI is good at using Speed and Maneuverability, it feels even more OP. Usually ships which lack the aforementioned features, usually have something that makes up for it, for example, Paragon has Very good shield and range buff ship system.

Meanwhile ships like Dominator and Onslaught are supposed to rely on Armor to make up for their weaknesses, but the problem here is that the AI isn't good at armor tanking.

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Badger

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #80 on: May 12, 2021, 04:13:22 AM »

I just feel like it needs to be said that doing this on a low tech Cruiser does not do this. This entire safety override problem is one engineered by making nearly all high tech overtuned/overpowered.

Put SO on a Hyperion as compared to a Lasher. Which of those is suddenly able to kill everything. Again Fury vs Dominator, same thing again. Dominator with SO lol. The entire problem with SO is it buffs everything High tech is already overpower in. High tech specifically is the problem, not SO. SO is being blamed for making overpowered ships excessively overpowered, I mean it does scale existing numbers.

I don't really agree but I am very new so feel free to point out any errors. I'm not saying high-tech being too strong (or low-tech being too weak) is not an issue, but SO can be considered in isolation. The SO hullmod being imbalanced and nonsensical doesn't depend on what it is fitted in. Obviously you will get more bang if you put in in a Hyperion compared to a Lasher (I would hope so for something like triple the DP), but if a ship is overpowered SO will make it super OP, and if a ship is junk SO is a way to make it much less junk.

Obviously some ships are more suited to installing it than others, but I still think a mod that doubles your power output when power output is THE stat in the game shouldn't be a thing at all.
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Draba

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #81 on: May 12, 2021, 06:32:42 AM »

The drawback of 'it doesn't last long' doesn't apply in 90% of situation and in the other 10% you just use something else - 'drawback' bypassed. Putting overpowered things on timers has never been a good way to balance anything in games I have found.
I think the problem is with SO itself. When you put SO on a ship, you are not so much customizing it as making a different ship. Just my personal preference but when I see a capital ship I want to be quite confident that it has more power output and is tankier than a cruiser, and not less so because the captain of the cruiser has 'overridden the safeties'.
Obviously some ships are more suited to installing it than others, but I still think a mod that doubles your power output when power output is THE stat in the game shouldn't be a thing at all.
Agreed, for me SO feels out of place and is just a source of cheesing.
It was fun to try some of the more outlandish setups, but feels too cheap so I do not use it.
Note that SO gives +100/+80/+70 effective speed in combat, IMO that's at least as important as the flux.


Put SO on a Hyperion as compared to a Lasher. Which of those is suddenly able to kill everything. Again Fury vs Dominator, same thing again. Dominator with SO lol. The entire problem with SO is it buffs everything High tech is already overpower in. High tech specifically is the problem, not SO. SO is being blamed for making overpowered ships excessively overpowered, I mean it does scale existing numbers.

I have no clue why the actual issue doesn't get addressed.
Ships that can mount HMG paired with some armor cracking are the poster boys for SO, Eagle/Hammerhead/Brawler probably being the best examples.
No way something that's married to high tech being on the strong side.

SO lasher vs Hyperion is a really poor comparison.
Hyperion is 30 DP with 120 sec base PPT,lasher 4/240.
SO lasher with machine guns+LAGs+ammo feeder is really scary for the cost.

Fury in general is very strong for 15 DP, it doesn't need SO to smash everything so IMO it's a Fury problem.
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KDR_11k

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #82 on: May 12, 2021, 06:53:27 AM »

They throw the whole combat balance totally off by suddenly making cruisers outperform capitals in raw flux while flying like frigates.

I just feel like it needs to be said that doing this on a low tech Cruiser does not do this. This entire safety override problem is one engineered by making nearly all high tech overtuned/overpowered.
In part that's just because high-tech relies on speed and shields, both things that get buffed by SO while a low tech ship's armor won't be any tougher with SO.

Though I do agree that high-tech frigates especially are just OP by default, they have the speed to avoid being caught out and using shields for defense means they don't attrition from taking the occasional hit. With officers in them I rarely ever lose a high-tech frigate and I don't even run SO.
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TaLaR

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #83 on: May 12, 2021, 09:19:32 AM »

Though I do agree that high-tech frigates especially are just OP by default, they have the speed to avoid being caught out and using shields for defense means they don't attrition from taking the occasional hit. With officers in them I rarely ever lose a high-tech frigate and I don't even run SO.

More like low/med tech frigates are fodder on wrong side of "outrun what you can't outgun" principle. What's the point of being a frigate when any DE/Cruiser with decent mobility system (or even Odyssey, a capital) can easily catch and crush you.
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Locklave

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #84 on: May 12, 2021, 02:35:59 PM »

I don't really agree but I am very new so feel free to point out any errors. I'm not saying high-tech being too strong (or low-tech being too weak) is not an issue, but SO can be considered in isolation.

You can't assess in isolation because it scales existing values. The ship mechanics and stats are required variables to gauge it's effect.  It's not flat bonuses by size, like Heavy armor mod, it's scaling existing stats on a multiplier. Now that I think about it, SO shouldn't be a multiplier, it should be a flat value based on size.

SO is balanced on all Low tech ship, most midline and nearly no high tech ships. That is the order of weakest performance to highest performance without SO, this is not a coincidence.

High tech is overpowered
Low Tech is underpowered
SO is OP for High tech
SO is balanced for High tech

High tech needs nerfs, SO isn't the problem. Although I think the mechanics of the Mod should change. If Heavy armor mod worked like it then it would be OP for Low tech ships.

SO lasher vs Hyperion is a really poor comparison.
Hyperion is 30 DP with 120 sec base PPT,lasher 4/240.
SO lasher with machine guns+LAGs+ammo feeder is really scary for the cost.

The point is that one turns into an unstoppable killing machine and the other just gets better performance. DP doesn't matter, it's the effect it's having relative to before it had it.

Anyone who thinks the Lasher is getting the same punch from SO isn't looking very hard. That disparity needs to be addressed.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 02:49:45 PM by Locklave »
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Sutopia

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #85 on: May 12, 2021, 02:55:33 PM »

I think it would be more appropriate to put a tempest against two lashers, not a cruiser pretending to be frigate. Hyperion is just terrible example due to how it’s ship system benefit from SO.


It’s also another issue by having officer limit that you can’t just field infinite officered frigates but need to put them in high value ones. If both sides are fully officered I doubt there is much disparity.

That said we either need a heavy low tech frigate or remove officer hard limit.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 03:01:15 PM by Sutopia »
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Draba

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #86 on: May 12, 2021, 05:10:36 PM »

It’s also another issue by having officer limit that you can’t just field infinite officered frigates but need to put them in high value ones. If both sides are fully officered I doubt there is much disparity.
I feel there's a bit of a deviation from the "sector in decay" theme right now.
The baseline for power are pristine superships with S-mods and officers, anything that's not a disposable POI runner or distraction feels dead weight without them.
If that is a problem skills would need a nerf, or officers made unlimited/sharing their bonuses to chaff in some way.


DP doesn't matter, it's the effect it's having relative to before it had it.
The "Which of those is suddenly able to kill everything" comparison you made does factor in DP.


Anyone who thinks the Lasher is getting the same punch from SO isn't looking very hard. That disparity needs to be addressed.
You are handwaving instead of trying to form an argument, and adding insults in the process.

LP Lasher with machine guns and LAGs has tons of OP to spare even without building in anything, and runs around at ~230 even without an officer/CM.
Paired with ammo feeder it's good at the initial captures, and can clean up some frigates/destroyers after. 4 DP, completely disposable.

AI can't use teleport properly, without that Hyperion is pretty bad for the cost so needs the player to pilot it.
With the player, wolfpack tactics (means you didn't get Coordinated maneouvers), reliability engineering (effective cost is 2 points), crew training(ok, you need this anyway) and hardened subsystems is ~130s PPT.
Without WT and RE ~70s.
In return it sucks at bruteforcing brilliants/radiants and absolutely hates fighters.

I'd take some SO lashers over using an SO Hyperion any day of the week.


A proper comparison is an eagle, still much cheaper than Hyperion.
3 HMGs are ~960 kinetic DPS, 3 phase lances smash armor, and the entire thing runs around at ~150-200 with CM and injector.
Give it to the AI and it'll plow over enemies. Stock Eagle is too slow and lacks venting to do that, it's all SO doing the heavy lifting.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 05:24:44 PM by Draba »
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Hellya

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #87 on: May 12, 2021, 05:22:00 PM »

I don't really agree but I am very new so feel free to point out any errors. I'm not saying high-tech being too strong (or low-tech being too weak) is not an issue, but SO can be considered in isolation.

You can't assess in isolation because it scales existing values. The ship mechanics and stats are required variables to gauge it's effect.  It's not flat bonuses by size, like Heavy armor mod, it's scaling existing stats on a multiplier. Now that I think about it, SO shouldn't be a multiplier, it should be a flat value based on size.

SO is balanced on all Low tech ship, most midline and nearly no high tech ships. That is the order of weakest performance to highest performance without SO, this is not a coincidence.

High tech is overpowered
Low Tech is underpowered
SO is OP for High tech
SO is balanced for High tech

High tech needs nerfs, SO isn't the problem. Although I think the mechanics of the Mod should change. If Heavy armor mod worked like it then it would be OP for Low tech ships.

SO lasher vs Hyperion is a really poor comparison.
Hyperion is 30 DP with 120 sec base PPT,lasher 4/240.
SO lasher with machine guns+LAGs+ammo feeder is really scary for the cost.

The point is that one turns into an unstoppable killing machine and the other just gets better performance. DP doesn't matter, it's the effect it's having relative to before it had it.

Anyone who thinks the Lasher is getting the same punch from SO isn't looking very hard. That disparity needs to be addressed.

Why not just remove SO? seems like way less work. Pretty sure Hyperion would be not nearly as good without it, from my test it is not OP without it. Neither would Doom or the host of other ships that are OP with it.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #88 on: May 12, 2021, 05:27:15 PM »

Hyperion with extended shields just ignores or kites fighters. Nothing poses a threat except radiant, tesseract and zigg. The only reason radiant poses a threat is because it can instantly turn with phase skimmer, otherwise it would be easy to kill.

Also, AI does just fine with tele as long as it has SO, and will happily jump in behind things and murder them. Sometimes it takes a little chip damage from the wind-up vulnerability but it's usually not an issue since it is behind the enemy 90% of the time. If you're claiming the AI doesn't know how to use tele, you haven't tried it on this patch, or have used some insufficiently aggressive AI, because it does work just fine in my experience.

Also, eagle is 22 DP, hyperion is 15 DP. Falcon is the best DP comparison, but tele is a much stronger system than maneuvering jets.

The reason SO is so strong on Hyperion though is because of how it interacts with the teleporter, not the stat boosts. If you couldn't tele on raised flux, SO hyperion would not be good IMO.
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Draba

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #89 on: May 12, 2021, 06:40:47 PM »

Also, eagle is 22 DP, hyperion is 15 DP. Falcon is the best DP comparison, but tele is a much stronger system than maneuvering jets.
Fair point, cost of actually putting it on the field is much more important than maintenance.

Hyperion with extended shields just ignores or kites fighters. Nothing poses a threat except radiant, tesseract and zigg. The only reason radiant poses a threat is because it can instantly turn with phase skimmer, otherwise it would be easy to kill.
Didn't mean it's fragile or dies too often, 0.6 shields and flux stats make it very durable.
Problem is it has an abysmal base PPT and only 3 mounts, 2 those M energy so will take some time to chew through ships.
Being swarmed by fighters and getting clipped by ions (both likely in big ordo fights) also don't help with killing fast while PPT lasts.

I use mostly aggressive officers, against the hard multi radiant fleets AI hyperions were nowhere near pulling their weight for me.
Spoiler
[close]
Granted, they didn't have SO and seen enough to throw them out after 2 battles.
I don't think 130s final PPT ships in a big remnant fight work well enough(300 battlesize).
90 if you don't gimp your bigger ships by taking wolfpack tactics instead of CM.

The reason SO is so strong on Hyperion though is because of how it interacts with the teleporter, not the stat boosts. If you couldn't tele on raised flux, SO hyperion would not be good IMO.
Helmsmanship's elite bonus is often almost as good for teleport, one of the few cases where it's useful.
Slightly easier to catch some ion beams though.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 06:51:30 PM by Draba »
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