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Author Topic: The Frigate Bias  (Read 27236 times)

Locklave

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #60 on: May 01, 2021, 05:24:37 AM »

Uhhh did you miss all the Onslaught buffs? It really got some big improvements, along with Enforcers, so I don't know what you guys are about low tech being bad.

There are detailed threads explaining in detail their problems. The new skills also support high tech ships better. Midline and High tech have the best Frigates that outclassed even low tech destroyers and the new skills buff them even more.

Low tech getting buffs doesn't make them still not the worst.

I guess we're pretending that there isn't a video in this thread of a High tech frigate killing the king of Low Tech. Are we pretending the enforcer would do better in that fight? Maybe try it against a Dominator? Either High and to a lesser extent midline are OP or the low tech is grossly UP.

All the insane 3 special mod builds are on High Tech ships, why is that?

But you were saying these punching bags got buffed so everything is fine.

edit:
Just so you can check what I'm talking about.
https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=21291.0
« Last Edit: May 01, 2021, 05:39:11 AM by Locklave »
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v4l0rus

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #61 on: May 01, 2021, 09:07:39 AM »

But isn't the point of more advanced technology to be better than old technology? High tech being weaker, or even on par with low tech wouldn't make sense at all imo
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Igncom1

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #62 on: May 01, 2021, 09:21:04 AM »

It's a style of shipdesign.

Low tech is tried and tested technology, simple to build and use but without the convenient automation and AI systems other ship types use.

High tech uses bleeding edge technology that sometimes comes at the cost of the crew who have to use them (like when dealing with phase or time manipulating designs) and present ships that simply can't operate for long periods of time before needing to withdraw. But are obviously absolute monsters who don't need ammo.

Midline presents a style of ship design to mix the less atrocious advances of hightech with the reliable technology of low tech, making rather specialised ships that do their roles really really well, but lack the adaptability of other design types. (Other design types don't have missile boats as they usually all have a decent selection of missiles, but Midline missile boats pack by far the largest and most.)

As food for thought the original Onslaught designs were said to have lacked shields and the hyperspace engines in use today. And so have likely been updated again and again over the years to meet the current standards of the fleet. With the 14th battlegroup still using these 'modern' Onslaughts when the gate system crashed.

But personally, I'd prefer if rather then low/mid/high tech they just refer ships to the in universe designers who created them. With Tri designs like the Paragon being one obvious example. (Frankly the Paragon doesn't really fit in their fleet doctrine anyway and should be in use by the Hegemony who use primarily gunboats, but whatever.)
« Last Edit: May 01, 2021, 09:22:49 AM by Igncom1 »
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SCC

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #63 on: May 01, 2021, 09:28:19 AM »

I would not mind tech levels being left behind and replaced with something else.

Locklave

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #64 on: May 01, 2021, 10:18:15 AM »

But isn't the point of more advanced technology to be better than old technology? High tech being weaker, or even on par with low tech wouldn't make sense at all imo

Then Low tech is there to suck. Does that feel good from a strictly gameplays stance? 

I get what you are saying, but at the same time lower tech would be vastly cheaper or something since old stuff is easier to make. They have no advantage at all. We don't get them cheaper, they aren't better at anything and they can't even bring more firepower.

Low Tech isn't faster/cheaper or easier to build, as it should be, despite being "tried and tested technology, simple to build and use" as Igncom1 correctly points out, it has no in game mechanics that reflect this.

You know what the down side should be aside from greater costs, all costs but crew, Peak operational time should be substantially lower then low tech ships.

Alex has given the Low Tech ships their weaknesses, higher crew, weaker/worse shields, terrible turn/top speed. Where is the High tech downside? There is none. They are just better ships with lower costs, as if Phase ships were the only thing needing Peak operational time limit changes. In longer fights High/midline should start suffering CR losses WAY sooner.

Low Tech gets downsides for Thematic/Lore reasons and High/Midline tech get none, because I guess Alex likes those ships more? Explain it to me. I don't get it.

edit:
Major game changes like SO being removed from special mods was done because of High tech ships. Does anyone think Lashers or Enforcers were breaking the game with SO special mod lol. But hey lets include them in the nerf.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2021, 10:39:10 AM by Locklave »
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Igncom1

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #65 on: May 01, 2021, 10:25:35 AM »

To be fair low's higher operating costs due to crew and fuel costs I think were kind of unexpected/unplanned.

I'm not even sure they are supposed to be, pound for pound, more expensive then high tech. Especially considering how some high tech ships have hull mods that are supposed to be making them more expensive.

Might be one that just fell through the cracks!
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Thaago

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #66 on: May 01, 2021, 10:41:52 AM »

I'd say low tech ships are the hardest to design and fly. Partially because they are somewhat weaker in the current balance, partially because they rely on limited resources and decisive engagements to win which the AI is not very good at. They have high PPT which is handy, but are not endurance fighters like high tech as both armor and missiles run out, while the whole point of high tech is to use an unlimited resource (shields) repeatedly.

On the other hand, they tend to have very flexible weapons once the player gets some good builds. Being able to configure the HE:Kinetic ratio of both guns and missiles is handy and the large ballistic mounts have 3 nice specialist options (Gauss for range/anti-paragon, storm needler for anti-remnant/omega, hellbore for anti-armor and general flux savings). Missiles is again ratio of sabots:HE and the type of HE - Reapers for anti-large ship, harpoons for anti-small ship.

Of course mid tech also has nearly the same level of flexibility with more specialist options on top, so its not like its a unique benefit.
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Vanshilar

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #67 on: May 01, 2021, 10:49:42 AM »

Bit of a topic drift but thus far (admittedly RC12) SO Aurora handles endgame fleets just fine. Soloing a 350k bounty isn't what makes something OP (and besides, that title goes to Doom which can solo even the Tesseract fights). The SO Aurora pretty much does everything I want it to do as my flagship for me to control the battle the way I want.

Obvious spoilers.

Currently my loadout is 4 antimatter SRM's, 3 minipulsers, 2 cryoblasters, and an ion pulser. Built-in are SO (I know, can't do it in latest version), hardened shields, and expanded missile racks. Also have expanded magazines, front shield, and solar shielding.

With skills, I basically have 4x9x1000 = 36k damage of alpha damage that I can lob on demand from the missiles. That's useful for forcing overloads/punching holes in armor, rescuing ships in trouble, or simply convenience -- remnant frigate teleported too far for my regular weapons? No problem, launch a volley and move on. Especially in early game when I'm getting one of the objective points.

The minipulsers with expanded magazines means 3x30x50 = 4500 kinetic damage to shields very quickly. They also handle fighters very well. The ion pulser is mostly for additional damage (was either that or pulse laser in the synergy slot) but it also contributes to anti-fighter.

The cryoblasters each basically do 3x the damage to hull as heavy blasters, at 2/3 the flux usage. In vanilla 0.9.1a, I basically relied on cobras since nothing else could do damage to capitals quickly enough. Nowadays, I just go up next to a radiant and unload with the cryoblasters; my carriers are relegated to broadsword/spark to help kill fighters.

The rest of the fleet is 4 SO medusas and 4 broadsword/spark drovers, until I find something better.

I've tried putting these weapons on tempest (and SO medusa) but I find it really needs to be on something like the Aurora for that overwhelming punch, since it has the weapon slots and the OP for it. Because of the high flux from SO, my limiting factor is really just the buildup of hard flux and my PPT. Soft flux drops away really fast. I haven't gotten the most updated version yet but without built-in SO it just means built-in something else with less OP to spend, likely getting rid of expanded magazines or something. At any rate it's a really fun build and it leads fleet battles just fine; I've done 4-radiant fights netting 4 mil XP (mostly because my small fleet gives me ~300-400% bonus XP, plus the story XP on top of that), though usually it's been 1-2-radiant fights for 2-3 mil XP.
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v4l0rus

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #68 on: May 01, 2021, 10:52:47 AM »

Perhaps it's like this as a means for a sense of progression (and probably other things), but that's just my guess of course

You've got a point that low tech should be cheaper to build. IMO they should require less supplies to deploy and repair, faster CR recovery but less peak performance time IF strength-wise things stay like this.

Also higher tech ships should give a max number of ships penalty to max fleet size, while low tech ships should give a bonus to it, but it can't drop below 30 of course, and I have no idea at what number it should cap, but it would look like this (just a very raw example):
- If each Cerberus adds a +0.5 max fleet capacity, while a Tempest adds a -1 max fleet capacity, then with 25 Cerberi and 5 Tempests you'd have a max fleet capacity of 38 (rounded up). Only the first 30 ships in your fleet can give positive modifiers, and past 30 only negative modifiers are active.

Of course, this could be broken as hell, but as I said, it's just a very quick example with a massive lack of refinement, but this would live up to the idea of quantity over quality, i.e just throw hunks of metal with guns and thrusters attached to it until the enemy breaks.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2021, 10:55:55 AM by v4l0rus »
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shoi

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #69 on: May 01, 2021, 11:39:40 AM »

I guess we're pretending that there isn't a video in this thread of a High tech frigate killing the king of Low Tech.

new drinking game: take a shot whenever anyone tries to use SIMslaught getting dunked on by a ship with officer skills as a measuring stick for anything

(not that the rest of what you said is wrong  ;D)
« Last Edit: May 01, 2021, 11:45:38 AM by shoi »
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SCC

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #70 on: May 01, 2021, 11:40:55 AM »

To be fair low's higher operating costs due to crew and fuel costs I think were kind of unexpected/unplanned.

I'm not even sure they are supposed to be, pound for pound, more expensive then high tech. Especially considering how some high tech ships have hull mods that are supposed to be making them more expensive.

Might be one that just fell through the cracks!
High fuel and crew costs were put there because of thematic reasons, but from gameplay standpoint, it just serves to kick low-tech while it's down already. When looking at DP, low-tech isn't much worse than midline or high-tech, but once you realise ongoing costs are a thing in the campaign, low-tech gets worse the bigger it gets, with Onslaught and Legion being 50% more expensive to run than all other capitals.

Perhaps it's like this as a means for a sense of progression (and probably other things), but that's just my guess of course
It doesn't really work from this perspective, because it's easy enough to have mostly high-tech fleet right from the start and keep it that way. A single Tempest is 40k or so, but it's the best investment you can make.

Locklave

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #71 on: May 01, 2021, 12:02:40 PM »

I guess we're pretending that there isn't a video in this thread of a High tech frigate killing the king of Low Tech.

new drinking game: take a shot whenever anyone tries to use SIMslaught getting dunked on by a ship with officer skills as a measuring stick for anything

(not that the rest of what you said is wrong  ;D)

I don't have enough shots for that.
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Igncom1

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #72 on: May 01, 2021, 12:06:01 PM »

Name one ship that isn't weak to being shot up the tail pipe!
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Locklave

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #73 on: May 01, 2021, 12:29:31 PM »

Name one ship that isn't weak to being shot up the tail pipe!

Are you being serious? Every ship with omni directional shields or 360 shields, basically everything not low tech. They don't get shot up the tail pipe. Also most of those same ships would be impossible to get behind in the matter presented.
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Igncom1

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #74 on: May 01, 2021, 12:33:18 PM »

Name one ship that isn't weak to being shot up the tail pipe!

Are you being serious? Every ship with omni directional shields or 360 shields, basically everything not low tech. They don't get shot up the tail pipe. Also most of those same ships would be impossible to get behind in the matter presented.

LOL  ;D
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