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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: The Frigate Bias  (Read 27234 times)

intrinsic_parity

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #30 on: March 29, 2021, 09:02:18 AM »

I think this is kind of intended. Let’s say you have 8 officers in Aurora. That is 240 DP. A proper lategame fleet. You should be able to defeat sim paragons with one of your 8 super ships.

But you’re not going to solo (and I would wager you would have a hard time in general even with a backing fleet unless it was also quite strong) a 350k bounty. At least not the ones I have fought. Your huge shields won’t matter against 80 broadswords. And it will take a long time to kill targets, which is an issue when there are 7 battleships and 10 cruisers and running out of PPT is a legitimate issue.

I am not saying it’s bad I am just saying I don’t think it’s OP. Or at least as OP as you’re implying.

Like, I can get an onslaught to (I think) ~825 minimum armor. I think I am far more afraid of the 825 min armor onslaught than I am of the SO Aurora.
Soloing a 350K fleet isn't the requirement for being OP. It feels very much like the SO hammerhead from last patch to me, it just buzz saws through stuff. It's actually really fine against fighters because of the IR pulse lasers with IPDAI plus it being able to easily kite them and you can easily armor tank for a bit while killing them. You can't push through or ignore a swarm of fighters, but you kill them quite quickly, and you won't ever die to them or anything like that.

Also, if you bother to even partially flank the paragon by avoiding the front hard points (which is trivial), you kill it without taking damage (it's much easier than with an onslaught IMO). I was emphasizing that you can fly up to the front of the paragon and still be fine with just a little shield management. I fly up to stations with it. The combination of being fast enough to dodge a lot of stuff (the skill that buffs system recharge rate feels like it gives it a 50%+ uptime on plasma jets), and tanky enough to be fine anyway is just really strong.

It's not 'solves the entire game' OP, it's 'trivializes a lot of interesting interactions in the game' OP. Idk, maybe it's kinda balanced by cost and PPT, and I just don't like the idea of taking a lot of the challenge out of piloting and replacing it with a timer.
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Locklave

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #31 on: March 29, 2021, 01:52:56 PM »

That's because no other capital ship is explicitly built, for meta and in-game lore reasons, to bring devastating firepower to bear facing forward while being vulnerable to the rear.
I'd still suggest that it's a bit excessive a issue.
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Eji1700

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #32 on: March 29, 2021, 02:52:41 PM »

(The Tempest is basically just too good. I suspect it'll meet a nerf bat in a dark alley some day, and what comes out just won't be the same as what went in.)
So..here's my thought-

The tempest, as is, is a great player ship (ok maybe still too much but close).  The "endgame" pinnacle of your fleet.  One of your elite ships, and it's neat that it's NOT a cruiser/capital, and isn't as obviously special as the hyperion.

However...obviously, the tempest as is CAN'T exist as something you can have 3+ of in your fleet.  I mean single player game so obviously it could, but it does warp the game to where even people who aren't trying to minmax are going to wind up with fleets full of tempests.

Just food for thought on the upcoming alley mugging.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2021, 03:03:55 PM by Eji1700 »
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Anvel

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #33 on: March 29, 2021, 03:06:17 PM »

Anyone is a hero vs simulation onslaught, try that trick vs redacted that has at least one capital, your frigates without heavy tanks will melt like paper, I mean old tech ships is not this game final challenge.
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Goumindong

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #34 on: March 29, 2021, 03:29:59 PM »

It's not 'solves the entire game' OP, it's 'trivializes a lot of interesting interactions in the game' OP. Idk, maybe it's kinda balanced by cost and PPT, and I just don't like the idea of taking a lot of the challenge out of piloting and replacing it with a timer.

Take the SO off
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ANGRYABOUTELVES

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2021, 02:39:55 AM »

It's not 'solves the entire game' OP, it's 'trivializes a lot of interesting interactions in the game' OP. Idk, maybe it's kinda balanced by cost and PPT, and I just don't like the idea of taking a lot of the challenge out of piloting and replacing it with a timer.
That's Safety Overrides in a nutshell. It takes a lot of the challenge out of piloting, like when to vent, how to approach long ranged ships, flux management, etc., and replaces it with a much tighter peak performance timer. I've never liked it, but unfortunately removing it from the game would require redesigning a significant number of weapons and all of the Luddic Path's loadouts.
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Arcagnello

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #36 on: April 02, 2021, 03:38:17 AM »

It's not 'solves the entire game' OP, it's 'trivializes a lot of interesting interactions in the game' OP. Idk, maybe it's kinda balanced by cost and PPT, and I just don't like the idea of taking a lot of the challenge out of piloting and replacing it with a timer.
That's Safety Overrides in a nutshell. It takes a lot of the challenge out of piloting, like when to vent, how to approach long ranged ships, flux management, etc., and replaces it with a much tighter peak performance timer. I've never liked it, but unfortunately removing it from the game would require redesigning a significant number of weapons and all of the Luddic Path's loadouts.

Also to mention that Safey Overrides used to be heavily reined in by reducing Peak Perfoamance Time by a factor of three but now there are commander skills that add PPT in an additive way, circumnventing the whole thing.

PS: Do try overridden Fury, it's basically an Aurora but with around 60% more weapon concentration at half the Deployment Points; not to mention the fact it goes faster than most non-SO frigade and still manages to have more PPT due to the above mentioned reasons. Ridicolous.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2021, 03:40:38 AM by Arcagnello »
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Arranging holidays in an embrace with the Starsector is priceless.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #37 on: April 02, 2021, 08:15:46 AM »

The aurora has significantly more converging mounts so I'm not sure how fury could have better weapon convergence. Aurora also has double the dissipation and a better maneuverability system, so it can easily chase down any non-so frigate already.

I had stopped using that aurora a bit when I was fighting lots of capital ships, but then I got some spoilery weapons and now I'm using it again.
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Voyager I

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2021, 12:15:01 PM »

The aurora has significantly more converging mounts so I'm not sure how fury could have better weapon convergence. Aurora also has double the dissipation and a better maneuverability system, so it can easily chase down any non-so frigate already.

I had stopped using that aurora a bit when I was fighting lots of capital ships, but then I got some spoilery weapons and now I'm using it again.

Having used both as a Flagship with analogous mounts, it's tough to really recommend the SO Aurora over an analogous Fury.  Doing the obvious loadouts of Heavy Blasters, Sabot Pod, and AM Blasters to taste, the Aurora packs appreciably more punch...but not enough to justify being double the deployment points.  Even accounting for the fact that officers are a limited resource and you really want to make the most out of every ship you put them in, there are absolutely more impactful ways to spend 15 DP on upgrading a ship than going from Fury > Aurora.  On top of all that, the Fury has a significantly more efficient shield (going from 0.7 to 0.8 may not seem like much, but it's substantial) and a capacitor pool that's nearly as deep, meaning that combined with slightly better mobility I've found it to be more durable in practice.  Then you've got to think about the campaign-level differences.  The Fury is much cheaper to acquire, has half the upkeep, and burns fast enough to naturally cruise with Destroyer fleets and be a huge bully in the early game.

Again, the argument here is not that the Fury is individually superior to the Aurora (it isn't) or that an SO Aurora won't pull its weight in a fight (it will) - it's that the SO Fury is an absolute monster for what it costs and upgrading it to an Aurora doesn't justify the investment.
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Chthonic One

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #39 on: April 11, 2021, 12:44:26 PM »

(The Tempest is basically just too good. I suspect it'll meet a nerf bat in a dark alley some day, and what comes out just won't be the same as what went in.)
...They're indeed head-and-shoulders above other conventional frigates, but they're expensive and rare enough that the player can't field them in meaningful number until late in the game...
Tell that to my factory. The historian told me where to find a blueprint almost immediately.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #40 on: April 11, 2021, 12:45:29 PM »

Aurora has waaaay better mobility IMO, its system is so much better because you can use it for engagement and disengagement just as easily. I also don't think blaster aurora is best anymore. IR pulse lasers and ion pulsers are actually incredibly good now on SO builds for shield DPS and big ion damage. I don't have any sabots on SO auroras and one or two heavy blasters at most. Once you get the new weapons, it just becomes so much stronger too. With new weapons, aurora can solo capital ships which is what I need in a late game fleet. If fury can do that I would be very surprised.

As an AI ship, sure fury might be better value, but for a flagship no way. Player aurora is worth way more than player fury + AI fury.
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q-rau

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #41 on: April 11, 2021, 12:52:58 PM »

No one ever told me the Tempest is an endgame ship. I've managed to collect five of the things in my first three hours. That much is unusual, but I usually have at least two or three long before I have a colony.

That said, I don't use SO except on Lashers and so far I've been going full red/blue and not taking Wolfpack or Crew Training so mine aren't quite as egregious.
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Igncom1

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #42 on: April 11, 2021, 01:03:28 PM »

It's an all game ship. When you're high on them like me, there is no better!  ;D
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q-rau

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #43 on: April 11, 2021, 01:38:14 PM »

It's an all game ship. When you're high on them like me, there is no better!  ;D

Yet your signature says otherwise!
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Igncom1

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #44 on: April 11, 2021, 01:39:31 PM »

 ;)

True but I do have at least 1 in my current game! Just not my usual 8.
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Sunders are the best ship in the game.
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