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Starsector 0.95a is out! (03/26/21); Blog post: Skill Changes, Part 2 (07/15/21)

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Author Topic: The Frigate Bias  (Read 14181 times)

SCC

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The Frigate Bias
« on: March 27, 2021, 02:29:05 PM »

The setup:





The testing:
Tempest manfighting an Onslaught:
Hyperion's single burst of ion pulsers against an Onslaught:



Single Heavy Blaster shot on Onslaught shields (+92% damage):
Single Anti-matter Blaster shot on Onslaught shields (+132% damage):
Single 6,4k damage Reaper on Onslaught armour (+60% damage):



Alex, what

Thaago

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2021, 02:54:37 PM »

+132% damage: thats a good number. And the Tempest can just straight up 1v1 an Onslaught from the front and win the flux war, while flying around at 233 speed. And the Hyperion can output nearly 17 thousand damage in a full burst.

Impressive.
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ANGRYABOUTELVES

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2021, 03:27:00 PM »

To be fair, this is the sim Onslaught with literally no forward kinetics. It's all frag and HE, except for the TPCs which are not going to hit a frigate. You put 2 heavy needlers or even just heavy autocannons on the centre two mediums, and I expect it'll be a very different outcome.
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Caymon Joestar

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2021, 03:32:39 PM »

Im gonna be real here

I understand that in 0.9.1 that frigates were rather weak and not really worth using beyond the early game.

But I don't think it's healthy for frigates to be able to handle caps with that much ease.
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TaLaR

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2021, 03:50:38 PM »

Well, Onslaught was always kill-able from behind for any decent frigate.
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Schwartz

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2021, 03:51:57 PM »

This is quite impressive.

But don't forget that the player has chosen to pilot a glass cannon. The low supply costs become a non-issue anyway, but flying a high-adrenaline high-reflexes ship with a high skill ceiling remains both fun and very dangerous. You also lose out by putting your 8 officers in frigates instead of, say, 8 cruisers.

That said, I just started with the new version so I can't say how OP this is or isn't. As far as I can tell, fighters got a nerf-stick (most skills are hangar limited) and frigates seem to be the new meta darlings.
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shoi

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2021, 03:53:32 PM »

To be fair, this is the sim Onslaught with literally no forward kinetics. It's all frag and HE, except for the TPCs which are not going to hit a frigate. You put 2 heavy needlers or even just heavy autocannons on the centre two mediums, and I expect it'll be a very different outcome.

this

Officer'd frigates could always destroy SIM Onslaughts, but it looks like its just easier now. It's kinda weird to try using a max level officer vs them as an example.

I'd be a little less worried about what the hyperion can do since its got the DP and logistical costs of a cruiser, but tempest being to go head to head with even a sim slaught seems excessive.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2021, 03:55:32 PM by shoi »
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Alex

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2021, 04:00:33 PM »

(The Tempest is basically just too good. I suspect it'll meet a nerf bat in a dark alley some day, and what comes out just won't be the same as what went in.)
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Goumindong

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2021, 04:08:43 PM »

They're good... But not that good? They still have range issues and its very easy to get surrounded. Having a few officers in frigates is super nice but your tempest isn't going to carry you the way the old onslaughts could
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Harmful Mechanic

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2021, 04:10:43 PM »

Returning the Tempest to having one drone and Active Flares for a system would go a long way to making it less egregious. As it stands, it’s got a Swiss Army Frigate role, with no real weaknesses en mass.
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Retry

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2021, 05:55:09 PM »

Tempests are among the most expensive frigates in the game, around the level of light Destroyers such as Shrikes.  I'd expect a modified Tempest to be capable of tussling with such light destroyers, at least.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2021, 06:00:25 PM »

SO tempest is really strong, but I'm feeling like maybe that's a consequence of built in SO being overpowered more than the tempest. I have a SO aurora that feels similarly overpowered as well. Maybe SO should not be able to be built in for free.
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rabbistern

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2021, 06:07:04 PM »

building in SO is fine... its not an "all around boost" mod, even the op cost aside the bonkers drawbacks of only 1/3rd of original PPT still means if you want to pilot an SO flagship, you better have a 2nd one to switch in.
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Voyager I

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2021, 06:31:51 PM »

(The Tempest is basically just too good. I suspect it'll meet a nerf bat in a dark alley some day, and what comes out just won't be the same as what went in.)

I would argue that Tempests were in a reasonable place in previous patches.  They're indeed head-and-shoulders above other conventional frigates, but they're expensive and rare enough that the player can't field them in meaningful number until late in the game, when they're fighting the kind of large-scale battles where Lashers and Wolves can't keep themselves alive anymore.  At that point the premium edge on the Tempest is just enough for them remain relevant, rather than dominant.

That said, if the new boosts for frigates are enough for mundane hulls to stay competitive, it wouldn't be surprising if the Tempest got pushed over the top.  I haven't had the time to test it out myself yet, but I'll be sure to burn a respec on finding out!
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: The Frigate Bias
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2021, 06:48:37 PM »

building in SO is fine... its not an "all around boost" mod, even the op cost aside the bonkers drawbacks of only 1/3rd of original PPT still means if you want to pilot an SO flagship, you better have a 2nd one to switch in.

You finish fights way faster when you roll over everything. There are also tons of skills to boost PPT now alongside hardened subsytems. Frigates can get even more on top of that. My SO aurora has been lasting through 200-250k bounties without issue. In the past, if you took SO, that basically meant you would have no other hullmods beyond maybe hardened subsystems. Now you can fit SO + 4-5 hullmods with top tier weapons and full vents. I actually took some vents off my aurora
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because my flux wasn't going up enough to take advantage of the energy weapon skill that boosts damage on high flux :P. I also haven't even put on a third free hullmod yet... I think it's too much.
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