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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24)

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Author Topic: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5  (Read 58208 times)

Lucky33

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #210 on: April 24, 2021, 01:59:00 PM »

Derelict Contingent is already marked for the nerf.

Reason for the Ranged Specialization is called Ziggurat.
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sector_terror

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #211 on: April 24, 2021, 06:24:22 PM »

Derelict Contingent is already marked for the nerf.

Reason for the Ranged Specialization is called Ziggurat.

Balancing your skill over some ship is never a good idea. "This skill is good if you take ONE ship" is so specialized it's ridiculous. It should be dropped to 1k range IMO, but alex himself admitted a non hot-fix balance patch is needed.

I do disagree with lucky. Industry has a lot of potential use and combat only needs minor upgrades to keep up. Remember, almost every one of these skill is made from scratch, it will take a lot of life playtesting to fix. I've posted my solutions before on that part. I admit to just not grasping the armor vs shield argument, so I'll let other people have that discussion. In general though, I do agree that the general vs specialist rundown isn't always the best. The discussion for Impact mitigation mitigation being a perfect example. That skill should remain powerful, but be left to less general ships, mostly being a staple of low tech and some closer ranger type midline. But range damage buff is useful to anyone, is the minimum was lowered to 700 or so.

Leadership is the only real mess, but that's a whole bag of worms
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Lucky33

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #212 on: April 24, 2021, 10:47:36 PM »

Well, this ship is the most powerful thing in the current release so why is it a bad idea to center your build around it? Second, RS is also much more helpful on the way to this ship. You do not tank damage in the phase ships like in the others. The first iteration of the IM could help on the Afflictor just as on any other frigate but it doesn't exist anymore. However, you do shoot projectiles. And the faster they go the more likely they are to hit. I did see SO ships literally dodging incoming AM blaster shots. The Matrix grade stuff.

Thus, why would I choose IM over RS? To pilot non-phase ships? Well, about that, as I said, you simply cant pilot the best non-phase battleship. Whats left are subpar obsolete ships incapable of the same performance. Choosing them is choosing to handicap yourself. It's a struggle to get the third place.

And, finally, Industry. Yes, it has a lot of potential to solve all the problems you are creating for yourself by picking large fleets of those obsolete ships mentioned earlier. Pick the optimal path and you don't need to think about logistics whatsoever. The only fun thing in the whole aptitude is already scheduled to get balanced.
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sector_terror

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #213 on: April 25, 2021, 06:53:15 AM »

Well, this ship is the most powerful thing in the current release so why is it a bad idea to center your build around it?

I didn't say your build, I said the balancing of a skill in general. If a skill is defined by being only useful to a -single- ship, then it's so overspecialized as to never really be a pick for the player. Remember, that thing is suppose to be a secret.

Thus, why would I choose IM over RS? To pilot non-phase ships? Well, about that, as I said, you simply cant pilot the best non-phase battleship. Whats left are subpar obsolete ships incapable of the same performance. Choosing them is choosing to handicap yourself. It's a struggle to get the third place. And, finally, Industry. Yes, it has a lot of potential to solve all the problems you are creating for yourself by picking large fleets of those obsolete ships mentioned earlier. Pick the optimal path and you don't need to think about logistics whatsoever. The only fun thing in the whole aptitude is already scheduled to get balanced.

And not we're into the extreme min-maxing. Just do everything perfect and play by math! Im sure you're good enough to pilot those ships perfectly and enjoy it, but I'm not. Nor are a lot of people, and none of us not in the phase ship party enjoy phase ships. Saying [redacted] battleship, SNK ship(exageration) it is, makes every other choice invalid is ridiculous. To just get alone is a nightmare and a half, often costing more than it's worth, and you need to drop a specific skill to even have it. Even if DP limits were removed it still wouldn't be black and white min-maxing since you're ignoring availability. Even if you weren't it's an issue with ship balancing at worst. You need to expand your horizons more man.
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Megas

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #214 on: April 25, 2021, 07:15:40 AM »

By the time Derelict Contingent gets neutralized, other skills might get whacked too, like all of the phase ship skills in Combat.  Doom is the new Drover.

And not we're into the extreme min-maxing. Just do everything perfect and play by math! Im sure you're good enough to pilot those ships perfectly and enjoy it, but I'm not. Nor are a lot of people, and none of us not in the phase ship party enjoy phase ships. Saying [redacted] battleship, SNK ship(exageration) it is, makes every other choice invalid is ridiculous. To just get alone is a nightmare and a half, often costing more than it's worth, and you need to drop a specific skill to even have it. Even if DP limits were removed it still wouldn't be black and white min-maxing since you're ignoring availability. Even if you weren't it's an issue with ship balancing at worst. You need to expand your horizons more man.
Drover spam was the rage last release, but I did not like Drover spam last release because I could not respec skills (and carrier skill set was specialized), I needed to micromanage fleet more (as done in various videos), and it chugged my old computer.

I do like phase ships with the current skills that speed them up.  Systems Expertise means I can use weapons with more range than AM Blasters on Harbinger (because long range weapons are no good if Quantum Disruptor does not keep up), and zipping around fast in the bigger phase ships are fun.

I do not like that the classic battleships are not up to snuff like they used to.  Paragon would be fine if it did not cost so much DP.  Conquest seems nerfed (shield may be smaller, and Heavy Needler does not have enough range to pair with 900 range weapons anymore)  I have not tried Onslaught yet.  Since carriers are sub-par in this release, Legion is merely a gutted Onslaught.

I originally planned to get C4L and maybe C5R, but after getting Ziggurat, I changed my mind and built to pilot phase ships.
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TaLaR

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #215 on: April 25, 2021, 07:41:55 AM »

I didn't say your build, I said the balancing of a skill in general. If a skill is defined by being only useful to a -single- ship, then it's so overspecialized as to never really be a pick for the player.

Many good builds in 0.95 are either for single ship or very narrow selection of ships. Reasonably universal builds are a thing of 0.91.

Remember, that thing is suppose to be a secret.

Yeah... this doesn't really work on forums. We may use words like [Redacted] or [Hyper-redacted], but everybody knows what these mean.
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Megas

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #216 on: April 25, 2021, 07:51:08 AM »

I didn't say your build, I said the balancing of a skill in general. If a skill is defined by being only useful to a -single- ship, then it's so overspecialized as to never really be a pick for the player.

Many good builds in 0.95 are either for single ship or very narrow selection of ships. Reasonably universal builds are a thing of 0.91.

Remember, that thing is suppose to be a secret.

Yeah... this doesn't really work on forums. We may use words like [Redacted] or [Hyper-redacted], but everybody knows what these mean.
Agreed.

It is a sled moment, and I think "Redacted" is silly and overused.  I have no problem identifying so-called spoilers as they really are freely.
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Lucky33

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #217 on: April 25, 2021, 09:41:13 AM »

Well, this ship is the most powerful thing in the current release so why is it a bad idea to center your build around it?

I didn't say your build, I said the balancing of a skill in general. If a skill is defined by being only useful to a -single- ship, then it's so overspecialized as to never really be a pick for the player. Remember, that thing is suppose to be a secret.

Thus, why would I choose IM over RS? To pilot non-phase ships? Well, about that, as I said, you simply cant pilot the best non-phase battleship. Whats left are subpar obsolete ships incapable of the same performance. Choosing them is choosing to handicap yourself. It's a struggle to get the third place. And, finally, Industry. Yes, it has a lot of potential to solve all the problems you are creating for yourself by picking large fleets of those obsolete ships mentioned earlier. Pick the optimal path and you don't need to think about logistics whatsoever. The only fun thing in the whole aptitude is already scheduled to get balanced.

And not we're into the extreme min-maxing. Just do everything perfect and play by math! Im sure you're good enough to pilot those ships perfectly and enjoy it, but I'm not. Nor are a lot of people, and none of us not in the phase ship party enjoy phase ships. Saying [redacted] battleship, SNK ship(exageration) it is, makes every other choice invalid is ridiculous. To just get alone is a nightmare and a half, often costing more than it's worth, and you need to drop a specific skill to even have it. Even if DP limits were removed it still wouldn't be black and white min-maxing since you're ignoring availability. Even if you weren't it's an issue with ship balancing at worst. You need to expand your horizons more man.

There is no balance in the current version.

You have legacy fleet (low, mid and high non-phase techs) what was designed as mutually balanced as possible and lives by its rules. And you have new fleet of ships what break said rules. Intentionally, since they are either fleet destroying bosses or "exotic touch" needed for other ship to look "normal". Of course they are hands down better. By design. I see no room for discussion here. We can have endless debate about whats better: Paragon, Onslaught or  Conquest but not about this.

As for availability issue, I have to say that the hiding place of Zig was found in about 5 minutes from the start of the new game and first salvaged Rad was the result of the Pather mission to survey what to my surprise happened to be the Red Planet itself. I never asked for this!

With all that said I must add that my point is that current skill system is non-existent because all that "no fun allowed" policy towards legacy fleet. Phase road is like fast track career option you know. You just got yourself your first Afflictor(P) and the next thing you know you are so overpowered that the game have nothing to offer as a challenge. But on the slow track you are getting your bonus armor cut into thirds because it is so important that old ships should be still vulnerable to medium caliber guns. I just can't stress enough how important this all is under Rift Torpedo fire...

And since I'm unable to unsee the whole Zig blitz possibility I'm feeling like I'm done with the current build.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #218 on: April 25, 2021, 09:54:32 AM »

Legacy fleets still work well enough to kill everything. If you don't want to play with phase ships, you can still do everything in the game. I personally think the phase skills should be removed entirely, and maybe some of the bonuses can be distributed to other skills in weaker forms.
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Lucky33

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #219 on: April 25, 2021, 10:01:17 AM »

Legacy fleets still work well enough to kill everything. If you don't want to play with phase ships, you can still do everything in the game. I personally think the phase skills should be removed entirely, and maybe some of the bonuses can be distributed to other skills in weaker forms.

Well enough? How many fights are you doing with them at 500% difficulty rating? And how fast do you farm SPs after lvl15?
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sector_terror

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #220 on: April 25, 2021, 10:22:45 AM »

There is no balance in the current version. You have legacy fleet (low, mid and high non-phase techs) what was designed as mutually balanced as possible and lives by its rules. And you have new fleet of ships what break said rules. Intentionally, since they are either fleet destroying bosses or "exotic touch" needed for other ship to look "normal". Of course they are hands down better. By design. I see no room for discussion here. We can have endless debate about whats better: Paragon, Onslaught or  Conquest but not about this.


Secret ships and the like are explicitly out of balance and shouldn't even be factored in. I don't like those kinds of easter egg style 'secrets'(and they aren't well hidden either) are even in the game, but they are 100% harmless since they dont have any investment cost. I dont have to spend a skill point or dedicate a colony slot to it or something. Mind you I still think it's bad, but it doesn't suddenly drastically effect the flow of the game, unless Alex is using it to consider the difficulty scaling for end-game superboss style fights. That would indeed be trash and be of serious issue. The balancing here depends on how much your required to interact with it. Far as I know, neither the enemy designs for what is effectively post-game or any permanent cost, actually use it. You can ditch them all without sacrifice of any kind.

tl;dr: The existance of the scarab gun in Halo 2 doesn't make the game unbalanced. A lot of things do, but the scarab gun isn't one of the,

With all that said I must add that my point is that current skill system is non-existent because all that "no fun allowed" policy towards legacy fleet. Phase road is like fast track career option you know. You just got yourself your first Afflictor(P) and the next thing you know you are so overpowered that the game have nothing to offer as a challenge. But on the slow track you are getting your bonus armor cut into thirds because it is so important that old ships should be still vulnerable to medium caliber guns. I just can't stress enough how important this all is under Rift Torpedo fire... And since I'm unable to unsee the whole Zig blitz possibility I'm feeling like I'm done with the current build.

Okay if your blaming .9.5 for phase ship balancing then you are way off in another universe. They were a "problem," since way before this new update. Phase ships are extremely high reward high risk ships, for lack of sustainable defenses you get near invulnerability. Effectively, you decide how much flux to use regardless of enemy fire. But, it means you have nothing to small arms, so even light attacks which would mean nothing to other ships, are a drain on your flux, and defending and defending at the same time is impossible. some people have managed that into a such a skill they are effectively untouchable. Using this st a staple of balancing, is like balancing the difficulty of Minecraft mobs to speedrunners like Dream. Phase ships have to be balanced with the AI and general players, not the literal best of the best. If you found a way to use a skill I don't have to break the game, cool. But not everyone can use phase ships effectively.

Now, I have made clear, within my knowledge, why people see success with these ships. I am not one of those people, and if I am wrong to exactly what mechanics and numbers make them so overpowered, perhaps you would be wise to start a thread discussing the ins and outs of phase ships and what specifically allows this supposed behavior. As for the Zig(debating if I wanna go spoiler on that one), it is addressed above. If you cant stop yourself from using an optional SNK boss not likely considered in balancing your opposition, then it's entirely a you problem. You don't blame the scarab gun, for you using the scarab gun.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #221 on: April 25, 2021, 10:24:08 AM »

I can kill any fleet, that's good enough for me. I also tried phase ships, and I could kill any fleet, just two different approaches. I don't enjoy grinding SP, and I couldn't care less about min-maxing experience. I find that when my colonies get to max size with full cores and items and I've explored everything, there's nothing left to do that's interesting. I'll farm cores for a bit for the challenge, but I usually abandon the campaign some time around there.
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sector_terror

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #222 on: April 25, 2021, 10:26:08 AM »

I can kill any fleet, that's good enough for me. I also tried phase ships, and I could kill any fleet, just two different approaches. I don't enjoy grinding SP, and I couldn't care less about min-maxing experience. I find that when my colonies get to max size with full cores and items and I've explored everything, there's nothing left to do that's interesting. I'll farm cores for a bit for the challenge, but I usually abandon the campaign some time around there.

Hey I'm not alone. I also never understood the obsession with phase ships. I see the results sure, but I'm also one of those guys who can't get those results.


Legacy fleets still work well enough to kill everything. If you don't want to play with phase ships, you can still do everything in the game. I personally think the phase skills should be removed entirely, and maybe some of the bonuses can be distributed to other skills in weaker forms.

Well enough? How many fights are you doing with them at 500% difficulty rating? And how fast do you farm SPs after lvl15?

Why are you fighting fleet battles with that kind of difficulty? I got close to post-game and never once had anywhere near that kind of disadvantage. I called at 325% and that was when I got ambushed due to my own mistakes. If this is hard end-game, then maybe discussion of the difficulty balancing of the superboss grade optional fights are in order. Or maybe you're just rushing into fights your not anywhere near prepared for and you deserve to get crushed.
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SCC

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #223 on: April 25, 2021, 10:45:12 AM »

As far as I know, with current balance, fleet composition tier list would probably be something like this: phase ships and derelict contingent at the top, then high-tech with a Radiant, then most other fleet compositions, then low-tech fleets.

Well enough? How many fights are you doing with them at 500% difficulty rating? And how fast do you farm SPs after lvl15?
What are those 500% fights? I forgot the game has an XP bonus for fighting at a disadvantage until now. About SPs, I earn them at a rate of roughly one per bounty, thanks to a massive pile of bonus XP I can't get dispose of quickly enough.

[Phase ships are extremely high reward high risk ships, for lack of sustainable defenses you get near invulnerability.
Heh heh heh heh heh heh...

Lucky33

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #224 on: April 25, 2021, 11:04:11 AM »

Zig being secret is a joke. As I said, I've found Alpha Site in about 5 min. No spoilers. And I can and will use anything available without cheating. This is why Rad was perfectly balanced prior to 0.95. Cant get it. Case closed. Also I have no idea what that Scarab gun is. And don't want to know because it is irrelevant.

The last time phase ships were near that good Harbinger lost its frontal Reaper battery variant. However, now they are better. But the problem is that the skill system now forces you to choose something. Well, don't mind if I do...

I was constantly fighting at 500% difficulty to earn the SP faster (that's x5 xp gain). And you need them to respec yourself, your officers and refit your fleet. To try some new exciting possibilities that the game had to offer. Recent nerfs solved all these problems. No need to do anything of that now.
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