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Starsector 0.95a is out! (03/26/21); Blog post: Skill Changes, Part 2 (07/15/21)

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Author Topic: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5  (Read 26420 times)

KDR_11k

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #195 on: April 21, 2021, 01:46:01 PM »

I strongly agree that colonies as an aptitude would make sense. No idea how to fit that into the binary choice design or pad it to 5 tiers but it's definitely a playstyle choice that should be disentangled from the other aptitudes.
I don't think we have to worry about players getting to the colony skills too quickly, they're not so great that they would change the early lifecycle of your colonies much.
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Rudette

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #196 on: April 23, 2021, 04:34:49 PM »

After playing with for a couple hundred hours it I've been trying to put my finger on what I like about it and what I don't, so bare with me. Skill System feels like a rough prototype. Skills are a mixed bag. I like the idea of a tiered progression system, where you have choices to make. I love making builds and what not in games more than I like a free form system, but this one doesn't feel good. Yet, at least. There are a number of problems with it's current incarnation:

If Generalist (Left) vs. Specialist (Right) is the goal, then early iterations of these brackets fail at this- and I think that makes people feel bad or just confused:

There are several wonderful tiers that really make you think about what you want to choose: Navigation vs. Sensors or Damage Control vs. Reliability Engineering are good examples of tiers that really make you think about what you want and both pull their weight.

Leadership is probably the key example here. Weapon Drills is weak due to fleet cap, especially compared to Auxiliary support's numbers. But, you don't always want Auxiliary Support depending on how you like to set up your logistical ships, leaving you feeling like Weapon Drills is doing very little for you. Leadership 2 gives you the choice between two specialist skills that deal with frigates, which bucks the trend of the rest of the system and leaves a player with a non-frigate strategy with skill that's not necessary working towards their goals. With precious few skill points, this feels bad. Though, personally, I'm all about Wolf Pack and Auxiliary Support.

Industry 1 kind of feels bad because you have to choose between getting more loot or actually being able to carry it. It's also not clear to me how the Salvage skill interacts with diminishing returns from Salvage Gantrys. Between the caps and diminishing returns it feels like you're just choosing between alleviating part of your fleet composition (less salvage rigs or less logistics ships) The + 1 Burn Speed of Bulk Transport would make more sense rolled into Auxiliary Support I think, where as bulk transport could receive some kind of other nudge. If you're not taking Auxiliary Support, then you're likely militarizing your logistics vessels for + 1 Burn and lower maintenance on cargo expansion. Maybe the intent is opening up more ordinance points?

Personally, I'd almost like to see Auxiliary Support moved to Industry tier one, with the + 1 burn from bulk transport rolled into it. I think industry feels weird because of where the choices are. I think maybe the choice breakdown there should be Fleet Buff vs. Logistics buff instead of Logistics Buffs vs. Logistics buff- then going through three tree you could specialize, mix and match, or whatever.

My favorite parts of the industry tree are the parts that don't feel like an economic difficulty slider. At first I was kinda iffy about the Containment Procedures vs Makeshift Supplies but there is some synergy here. Damage Control on your officers + Field Repairs helps you on the supply front while Salvage + Containment Procedures can help you keep your fuel topped off from fighting. You don't have the passive supply boons of Makeshift Supplies, but you do recover a big chunk ship damage after battle for free, lose less crew, and so on. I'm not good enough at math to figure out which saves me the most money, but my gut says Makeshift Supplies probably does anyway due to the amount of time spent in systems as opposed to traveling.

Leadership, Technology, and Industry are kind of chaotic, thematically and mechanically. Industry isn't so bad, I think it's placement that makes people feel weird about it:

Leadership is another example here too.

Ideally, early skills should be Generalist vs. Specialist. Deeper skills should be Specialist vs. Specialist to reflect the investment in climbing that lane and solidifying playstyles. Categories are now an eclectic mix of fleet buffs, personal buffs, logistics buffs, and colony buffs with little in the way of a cohesive theme in most trees. Leadership has an odd first couple of tiers, then goes right into

I'll echo the sentiment that T4 in Leadership and Engineering feel like the 'capstone' abilities due to the colony skills.

I think this is also jarring for a lot of people but not necessarily bad. And, if you do get rid of the colony skills, maybe Industry and Leadership will feel less chaotic.  I do like the idea of a personal combat/piloted ship buff in every tree though. Maybe if you remove colony skills then this would feel less chaotic? Another idea, might be to roll some of the logistics skills in Industry together, adjust the numbers if need be. There'd be room for it without the colony skills. Or, it could make room for colony skills if you kept them.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2021, 05:10:22 PM by Rudette »
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Lucky33

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #197 on: April 23, 2021, 09:49:39 PM »

Due to recent nerfs there is no longer skill system in the game but this:



Anything else will severely hinder your combat capabilities and can be compared with shooting yourself in the leg. Yes, you can live with that but why would you do it?

As anyone could guess this also defines fleet composition for the most part.

And the play style.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2021, 09:55:35 PM by Lucky33 »
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #198 on: April 23, 2021, 11:32:05 PM »

Lmao why on earth would you take ranged specialization over impact mitigation when you are locked into flying a phase ship. If you are not planning on flying a phase ship, then taking the phase skills is very sub optimal. There's no way that's the best possible skill set lol.
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Mordodrukow

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #199 on: April 23, 2021, 11:50:39 PM »

Impact mitigation now gives +50 armor instead of +150. What a big buff, lmao...

Seriously, armor always (well, i v seen only 9.1 and 9.5, so, maybe, for earliest versions it is not the case) was weaker than the shield. Here were a lot of complains about tougher enemies. We can choose: nerf shield skill or nerf armor skill. Both will work, but, as i mentioned earlier, armor need buffs. We nerf armor... Brilliant!
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Thaago

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #200 on: April 24, 2021, 12:41:10 AM »

... 50 residual armor is the equivalent of having 1000 extra armor base for the purposes of residual armor and hullpoints. By the math for midcaliber weapons, it reduces incoming damage by more than damage control. The skill also has -25% armor damage total for medium/heavy armor ships, and 50% less damage done to weapons and engines, which is a really good benefit. Salamanders not knocking out engines alone is very nice for ships that rely heavily on maneuvering to live, and weapons staying online is great for ships that rely on slugging it out.

Is the skill overnerfed? Maybe it is a little bit yeah, but more than two days worth of playtesting with the new skill is needed to get a solid read on how it feels and how it changes things. Theory can try and address points before playtesting has matured by running the numbers, but the vast majority of posts about it show a lack of understanding of what the skill actually does and don't show any numbers, so its hard to take those posts seriously.

Lucky33's post is a good satire post that I got a laugh out of. Its a bit subtle because first it seems like a reasonable skill build, but then I looked more closely and saw whats really going on in relation to forum chatter and I just started laughing.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2021, 09:34:31 AM by Thaago »
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Mordodrukow

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #201 on: April 24, 2021, 12:54:16 AM »

You overrate the armor. For example, Heavy armor hullmod by any means doesnt valuable as 40 OP (well, may be it is, but cost few times more than Hardened shields? Nonesense...).

Even if you evaluate it correctly, you already made this part to be an elite bonus, so, most of enemies will not have it. Yes, remnants will. But the most profit this skill gives to small ships, because of fixed number. And small remnants never were a problem.

And the last one. You need to strip armor once and enemy will be vulnerable. While enemy with high flux will just fall back, vent and return.

Quote
1000 extra armor
Good. And shield skill gives you many times more (potentially infinite).

The only reason why i agree the nerf was required: other tier 3 skill was way worse. But it was possible to fix that by buffing it.

UPD. I just wanna say: you nerfed player more than enemy. If it was the goal - ok.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2021, 01:04:08 AM by Mordodrukow »
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Lucky33

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #202 on: April 24, 2021, 02:01:02 AM »

Lmao why on earth would you take ranged specialization over impact mitigation when you are locked into flying a phase ship. If you are not planning on flying a phase ship, then taking the phase skills is very sub optimal. There's no way that's the best possible skill set lol.

Because Ranged will at least be of some practical use.

Two best ships in the game are Ziggurat (err) and Radiant. You can't pilot one of them and another one is phase. So choose carefully since it is so easy to make a mistake.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2021, 04:20:04 AM by Lucky33 »
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Lucky33

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #203 on: April 24, 2021, 02:09:36 AM »

... 50 residual armor is the equivalent of having 1000 extra armor base for the purposes of residual armor and hullpoints. BY the math for midcaliber weapons, it reduces incoming damage by more than damage control. The skill also has -25% armor damage total for medium/heavy armor ships, and 50% less damage done to weapons and engines, which is a really good benefit. Salamanders not knocking out engines alone is very nice for ships that rely heavily on maneuvering to live, and weapons staying online is great for ships that rely on slugging it out.

Is the skill overnerfed? Maybe it is a little bit yeah, but more than two days worth of playtesting with the new skill is needed to get a solid read on how it feels and how it changes things. Theory can try and address points before playtesting has matured by running the numbers, but the vast majority of posts about it show a lack of understanding of what the skill actually does and don't show any numbers, so its hard to take those posts seriously.

Lucky33's post is a good satire post that I got a laugh out of. Its a bit subtle because first it seems like a reasonable skill build, but then I looked more closely and saw whats really going on in relation to forum chatter and I just started laughing.

I've already summed this up. Now it's a skill for the low-tech.

After two days of playtesting I simply abolished its use altogether. That's all to it.

I got a laugh of how the game destroyed its skill system in just a month after release.
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Megas

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #204 on: April 24, 2021, 04:48:19 AM »

If I did not care about Industry, I would probably make a build identical to Lucky's.

I only took Impact Mitigation because of the reduced damage for knockout, which alone is not enough, and because I piloted Harbinger much at the time.  But, I am strongly considering changing that to Ranged Specialization because 800 range is not very long, and unless I play a melee ship (which is seldom for me), Ranged Specialization seems like a better idea to kill things faster.  Also, faster shot speed is fun.

Harbinger can get close to 1000 range with Phase Lances, which is about the range of Quantum Disruptor enhanced by Systems Expertise, so even it can benefit from Ranged Specialization a bit.

Lucky33's post is a good satire post that I got a laugh out of. Its a bit subtle because first it seems like a reasonable skill build, but then I looked more closely and saw whats really going on in relation to forum chatter and I just started laughing.
I think Lucky was serious, because I would do the same if I did not care enough about Field Repairs and Industry 2 and 5.

Since I do not abuse cores because I do not want to deal with faction politics, plus I do not have time to grind for cores, my character does not have unlimited money, and Field Repairs is nice QoL for fixing s-mod ships back to pristine without breaking the bank.  I just wished Field Repairs worked at least as fast as every month instead of two months.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2021, 05:03:45 AM by Megas »
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Havoc

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #205 on: April 24, 2021, 05:28:26 AM »

does point defence skill work with tactical lasers?
what weapons are "point defence" only the one with point defence in the description or PD in the name? like Heavy Burst Laser or PD Laser
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Lucky33

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #206 on: April 24, 2021, 06:30:56 AM »

As for "unlimited money". Contact bounties now yield 1.5-2 times more. 1.2mil for tesseract and 0.6 for hunter killer ones.
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Retry

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #207 on: April 24, 2021, 06:39:08 AM »

Impact mitigation now gives +50 armor instead of +150. What a big buff, lmao...
It's a bigger buff than +0% damage from Ranged Specialization since a phase ship is engaging at CQC in the first place.
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IonDragonX

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #208 on: April 24, 2021, 06:52:05 AM »

does point defence skill work with tactical lasers?
what weapons are "point defence" only the one with point defence in the description or PD in the name? like Heavy Burst Laser or PD Laser
No. Description: Primary Role = Point Defence.

SCC

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #209 on: April 24, 2021, 10:20:49 AM »

Lucky33's post is a good satire post that I got a laugh out of. Its a bit subtle because first it seems like a reasonable skill build, but then I looked more closely and saw whats really going on in relation to forum chatter and I just started laughing.
It's close to what I used to solo everything with a Doom. I took Weapon Drills instead of Automated Ships, as I had no use for other ships.

Anything else will severely hinder your combat capabilities and can be compared with shooting yourself in the leg. Yes, you can live with that but why would you do it?
You can alternatively go with Derelict Contingent. Less efficient, since you can't solo everything with a Doom, but you can win battles by doing nothing.
I don't get picking Ranged Specialisation over Impact Mitigation. While IM was nerfed, you seem to be flying phase ships and not Conquest, Eagle or Falcon, which are the only ships that can reliably pick their range, while being long-ranged enough that you get some decent numbers with RS.

Two best ships in the game are Ziggurat (err) and Radiant. You can't pilot one of them and another one is phase. So choose carefully since it is so easy to make a mistake.
Doom is best.
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