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Author Topic: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5  (Read 59231 times)

Thaago

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #60 on: March 31, 2021, 10:44:21 AM »

The leadership line has all the useful skills (for me) gated behind 2 levels of things that do really do anything for me or are so trivial it's not worth a skill point.
This could be improved by shuffling some of the skill pairs around so there is a path through to the later choices that isn't seen as a 'waste' by a player who isn't looking to do that one thing the game is now trying to encourage you to do.
This tbf is more of a 'me' issue, as I look at the lineup and ask myself "do I want to spend 2 points to be able to even consider getting what I want?"
And the answer is likely going to be no.
...

The leadership line is one that I've been thinking about a lot. What I want from this skill are really the levels 3 and 4 CR and officer skills, which are quite powerful, so what can I do for those level 1 and 2 skills? I'm analyzing this in the light of my current problem: A lot of my late game difficulty comes from the fact that my non-officered support fleet just gets its teeth kicked in by enemy officers, so how can I boost them?

For 1L, at first it seems like a bit of a dud past the early/mid game, since the bonus goes down. But... just because the bonus goes down doesn't mean its bad. At 180 size, a 5% damage bonus to all ships, that stacks on top of officer skills for those ships, is valuable. Same offensive bonus as 15% CR, though without the autofire accuracy buff. It might seem like 5% damage or even 3% damage is too tiny to be worth a skill point because of the size of other skills, but I really don't think it is.

1R is the 'make 1 or 2 auxiliary ships awesome' skill, which is just as specialized as the phase skills or carrier skills and I haven't played around with it yet, but it can be good as others have shown.

2L is the most agonizing because I don't want my officers on destroyers or frigates, I want them on my cruisers! But the speed bonus from 2L goes a long way towards keeping my destroyers and frigates alive vs enemy officers. In theory this skill could be skipped by installing nav hullmods as the bonus caps out at 20, but those are quite OP expensive. On the one hand this skill is quite thematic: you're unled ships need some officers in scout ships (frigates and destroyers) to help them! On the other hand, if I need to leave officers on destroyers to keep the nav bonus, I might have some unled cruisers. Not the worst thing in the world, but its a balance of power: is the nav bonus to all ships worth the downgrade of the officers potential by moving them from a cruiser to a destroyer? Yeah, probably actually.

2R: make some frigates awesome (with officers), doesn't help the rest of the fleet. As others have shown, with the right ships this can be very strong.

3L: Cr for everyone hooray! Perfect skill for getting unled ships to do better against officers, especially when combined with some technology ones. Also great for officered ships. Really, just awesome, and one of the best skills in the game. 180 fleet size is a bit small, but on the other hand the bonus goes down pretty slowly, and 10% CR at 270 fleet size for example is still a good skill.

3R: make some carriers awesome, or many carriers better. Definitely seeing the theme here for leadership: left side boosts everyone, right side boosts a few of a specific type.

4L: and the theme breaks! Makes officers better. This is an excellent skill.
4R: more officers! In theory excellent, but in practice it depends entirely on how exactly mercenaries work and how available they are. I don't know the answer to that.

5 Colony skills, I have no opinion yet.



[Edit]
Re: supplies from fights. Without boosting skills or salvage ships combat can give significantly more supplies than it takes, and enemy fleets can be used as resupply points that also grant XP. I'm not using any skill boosted small ship hyper efficient strategies here either, just a normal battle fleet.

Really hard fights are often negative because of all the battle damage, but really hard fights come with other rewards.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2021, 10:47:46 AM by Thaago »
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Thaago

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #61 on: March 31, 2021, 01:26:41 PM »

While there is nothing wrong with this discussion, it is off topic and starting to drown out the thread - give me a few minutes and I'll strip out the relevant posts and put them in a new topic.

Edit: Topic has been split and can be found here: http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=20288.0
« Last Edit: March 31, 2021, 01:38:35 PM by Thaago »
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pedro1_1

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #62 on: March 31, 2021, 01:56:32 PM »

Combat:

C1L: Basically the one skill every player looking to use an actual combat ship will use.
C1R: Gunery implants for fighters, if you plan to use a battlecarrier or converted hangars is a must pick.

C2L: Damage to all ships that aren't frigates is great.
C2R: Carrier/CH/SO skill, the extra range from the elite means LDMGs have 400 range, which mean I don't need to waste OP to use ITU on an SO ship, and a sunder not having it's usual weakness to fighters is also not a joke, definitivally a loop around skill for SO capitans.

C3L: Great for all ships.
C3R: The only capitals that can control the engagement range are the Conquest, the Prometheus Mk.II, the Odyssey and the Paragon, of which the Odyssey and the Prometheus are better of closer to the action, which just leaves the Conquest and the Paragon to use this skill.

C4L: Shield skill.
C4R: Phase skill.

C5L: It's great in so many ships, but it's so bad in the few ships that can't use it. Gryphon whant to use it but can't due to the second skill in the two tiers before being terrible for it.
C5R: Missile skill that is great in all of the 2 missile cruisers that are worth using.

Leadership:

L1L: 10% damage at 90 deployment is great for frigate fleets, but 5% at 180 DP is kinda bad
L1R: Great for the few ships that need militarised subsystems to work on combat, specially Atlas Mk.II.

L2L: Kinda bad for anyone playing above 300 DP max.
L2R: Good for frigate fleets, and the +25 speed to ZFB in destroyer is very powerfull if you are using a SO destroyer as flagship.

L3L: Great skill that lines up perfectly whit the max size fleet I can bring whitout the game getting too low on FPS on my 3400G.
L3R: Also a great skill that lines up whit the max amount of fighters I would bring into combat due to DP limits.

L4L: Hard desion here, both are good skills that just happen to do diferent things, however I i'm more inclined to get this skill due to the extra control I can have for the Officers.
L4R: .

L5L: 30% accesibility and 25% fleet size is great, but buffed Ground Operations is insane.
L5R: The best way I can use to explain GD is simple, you have 300 marines with +15% to combat strenth, them you go raid Doom for volatiles, hhit this group you will get around 160-225 volatiles, adding GD it goes to 450-500 volatiles in the same raid, must have if you are going to raid.

Technology:

T1L: Transverse jump is not as much of a factor anymore, which makes this skill not as good as it might look in the first place.
T1R: The +3 to the slow movement makes this a easy first pick for all players that will go raiding.

T2L: Extra range and less weapon recoil are what makes this skill good, the autofiring lead bonus also exists.
T2R: Close range and high flux, perfect for SO Sunder/Champion, and the hightech ships, I guess.

T3L: This is not even a good choice, EW is far better even for the low DP's I play.
T3R: If I could use this I would, but it's nowere near as good as EW.

T4L: Falls in the same line as so many skills people dislike for the DP limits, it's great to have because even here the phase skill is a joke.
T4R: A good skill that is made terrible from the fact that a single Doom is enought to be above the limit.

T5L: The +10 bonus to vents and capacitors is good, but the extra free hullmod is far better than that, since you can not only put SO on your ship for free, you can also give it two other hullmods you whant, I knew this would be powerfull, but I completally underestimated how powerfull this skill is.
T5R: The limit is kinda low, but you should not be spamming Ai ships in the first place.

Industry:

I1L: Were you put the loot from raids on frigate fleets, I mean, if you need to transport a full unit of organics from the raided colony to the colony needing organics how would you do it, and for reference a unit of organics is 2500 storage units, this skill, in conbination whit Insulated Engine Assembly is enought to make Militarised Subsystems obsolete, and you should have the ships required to defend your cargo section if you will use a big ship.
I1R: No extra rares is lackluster in comparason to 0.9.1a, I guess it could be usefull for long term fleet maintenance.

I2L: Good for armor tanking, but why would you go and decide to take damage, but why would you do it insted of using that OP on new combt ship.
I2R: +15% CR is just great.

I3L: Fuel skill.
I3R: Supplies skill.

I4L: Faster Repair + D-mod removal, good for a exploration run were you don't whant ships full of D-mods.
I4R: D-mod skill for junker fleets.

I5L: Proper colony skill 2.
I5R: Proper colony skill 3.
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Thaago

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #63 on: March 31, 2021, 02:26:01 PM »

I think C3R is fantastic on Onslaughts as well even though they can't really control the range because lots of fighting happens in the 1200+ range band anyways. 900 range guns with ITU and Gunnery implants is 1575 range so almost the full bonus with most large ballistics and the TPCs. Anything mobile trying to approach the Onslaught needs to fly through the boosted zone before they can fire: anything running away needs to cross through the same range before they are safe. A cruiser trying to kite with 1000*(1.4+.15) = 1550 range ballistics/beams is in range too. While the armor skill is fantastic, when I bit the bullet and respecced into gunnery (losing an elite skill) my flagship started taking a lot less damage.

Needs dedicated cruiser builds and isn't really worth it on destroyers at all though.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #64 on: March 31, 2021, 03:01:47 PM »

I got a free cautious officer with gunnery implants + ranged specialization, and I was trying to figure out how to best use them. I currently have them on a conquest with gauss + HVD on one side, but I'm not sure if it's really that great. The DPS kinda sucks, and I think there are some weird range management issues where it moves out of range a lot for no reason (might be a cautious officer problem).

I was think the skills might be good on an onslaught with 1200 base range TPCs, but I don't think cautious will work well on the onslaught. Maybe though.

That officer seemed quite good on a champion with HIL + HVD though, that might be my favorite.
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SCC

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #65 on: March 31, 2021, 10:30:42 PM »

More detailed thoughts on some skills, after I played a bit more.

C3 L vs R: I think L is the better choice, simply because R applies only to capital ships and specific loadouts for capitals and cruisers. Everything else gets some benefit, but more survivability that always works seems more worthwhile.

C4R and C5R: perhaps they could be switched. Loose thoughts.

L1 L & R: like, c'mon, applied fluxics dynamics T4L has a DP limit of 180 and effect of +20% on two very important things, while L1L has just a half of that and L1R is basically limited to boosting just one ship to incredible levels.

L5L: it's a colony skill in a tree that doesn't have much to do with colonies and doesn't provide any other bonus.
L5R: same as previous, but with an added caveat: this is the only skill about raiding and it's so high up in the tree.

T2R: this one works on all the ranges but what Paragon and Odyssey fight at and it provides a bigger boost (while relying on high flux to get bonus damage, energy weapons will drive your flux up for you, and you get a 10% flux reduction to those in the skill anyway, too!), unlike C3R. C3R requires you go out of your way to use it, T2R helps you unless you go out of your way to prevent it from helping.

TaLaR

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #66 on: March 31, 2021, 10:57:28 PM »

C4R and C5R: perhaps they could be switched. Loose thoughts.

Well... Maybe. Being able to have both shield and phase specs would allow to actually switch between different kind of ships in combat. Now I'm 100% locked into piloting phase if I take phase spec.
But being forced to choose between system spec and phase spec would be a heavy nerf to phase ships, they all are very system-dependent.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2021, 11:02:35 PM by TaLaR »
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Thaago

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #67 on: March 31, 2021, 11:18:43 PM »

I dunno about switching C4 and C5... I think C4 having both phase and shield in the same tier is good because they don't compete. Its very friendly for non-loopers.

I agree that T4L is more powerful than L1L, but then again its a 4th tier skill instead of a 1st. Otoh, every single one of tech's levels is fantastic (except maybe ECM against top tier enemies but I feel thats more of a problem with those fleets breaking game systems than a problem with the skill itself), so the actual opportunity cost is very low.

Hmmm, does T4L effect base + vents or just vents? If its base, then its more like a 10-15% total boost depending on ship as vents make up a big proportion of flux. Still extremely useful though.
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speeder

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #68 on: April 01, 2021, 07:31:41 AM »

So I started playing the new version.

I am liking the academy storyline.

But the skills :(

So, I started as a salvager/explorer, that is my preferred playstyle anyway, I tend to avoid combat and just go around scanning stuff, trading and scavenging. I never play as pirate or smuggler.


So from my point of view:

1. Combat skills... no idea, I ignore them, because my focus is something else.

2. Leadership and Tech skills: my impression is they favor frigates for some reason, while my starting fleet already has a bunch of bigger non-capital ships, also some skills only apply to certain kinds of ships that I don't have.

3. Industry skills: they are... in a way a big wtf.

The thing is, the choices are "wrong", often in a tier the choices are synergistic, so you want BOTH of them, the biggest offender of this is the colony skills, where all of them are tier 5 in two different trees, meaning if you want to play as colony manager you can't, since you will never have all of them.

Also, industry tier 1 skills need each other, to be more specific: the salvage skill give you a shitton of normal resources, with no bonus for rare itens, but shitton of normal resources is worth close to nothing unless you have the huge cargo capacity that the other tier 1 skill can give you... so basically if you want the salvage skill, you are obliged to get the other tier 1 skill, meaning you have to go all the way to the end of the tree, and to be honest, the rest of the tree can suck if your goal is play as salvager.

Tier 4 has CONFLICTING skills, while Tier 5 is needed for colony leaders, so you need both Tier 4, being a huge waste.


Many of the skills are not bad per se, the problem is you aren't really making choices, specially not playstyle choices.

What I would do at least is change what skills go in each tier.

For example: want to play as salvager?

Tier 1 you pick salvager.

Tier 2 you pick the cargo skill...

Meanwhile: want to play as governor?

Tier 1 can be one of the governor skills.

Tier 2 another.

So your choices would be: you want to start a salvager path or a governor path?

And if you use 10 levels on Industry, then you get both paths.

Another tier of skills let you use less fuel OR less supplies... again BOTH are useful, but for a specific playstyle, I would stuff both into the salvager/trader path in different tiers.


From what I looked into theo ther trees they have the same issue, often you have tiers where you want BOTH while other tiers you want NEITHER. This is not just a sympton of some skills sucking, but the fact taht each tier favors a different playstyle thus you end with this sucky way, instead you should design this way:

You have the 4 broad categories, combat, tech, leadership, industry.

Then each of them you should imagine they have subcategories.

Thus you have something like eight "classes" that cost 5 points to max out. So your player character can have 3 "classes" at once.

So I would do something like this:

split combat for example into close and long range classes (for example close range have + damage to guns, long range have + damage to missiles and fighters)

split industry into salvager/trader and colony leader/builder

split tech in phase ship commander, and another into something else. (dunno what to be hoenst).

split leadership into fleet commander / somethign else?


So suppose you want to be a combat master that use phase ships, then you max out combat and get all pahse-ship related picks of tech.

Want to be "pacifist" ? You can pick both sides of industry + half of tech or leadership.

Want to be a pirate? You can pick only the "trader" side of industry, pick the "fleet commander" of leadership and pick the "clsoe range" combat skills, then you can go brawling with low-tech ships building an ever larget fleet of junk ships.

To me this makes much more sense than the current system where you want both tier 1 industry skills, both tier 5 industry skills, but not the tier 3.
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Megas

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #69 on: April 01, 2021, 08:27:58 AM »

Few comments.

If I go Combat 5, I am half tempted to take Missile Spec. because more missiles means missiles can be used longer in a fight, maybe last as long as Locusts, or have Locusts last even longer.  I do not want to elite that skill because I want missiles to last the whole fight, not use them up so fast!

The system skill on the left looks like it could be powerful on those with mobility systems, Doom, and others.

As for Industry 1, I have more problems exceeding capacity than not looting enough.
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Serenitis

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #70 on: April 01, 2021, 01:13:59 PM »

If I had enough points to get to combat 5, I'd very likely go for the systems skill just so I can eke out more PPT and hang onto my saftey overrides flagship security blanket for a bit longer.

Industry 1 cargo skill is good.
The extra space is nice to have (and this might be the only skill where the fleet limit doesn't feel too restrictive).
The extra burn speed tho...
That's good. Really good. It's like a free invisible tug for all your transports.


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Sarissofoi

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #71 on: April 01, 2021, 10:06:18 PM »

The whole skill system is total NO FUN allowed. Its so frustrating to play with it that it hurt.

Thaago

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #72 on: April 01, 2021, 10:18:50 PM »

I dunno, its not perfect but there's plenty of fun so far. I did a bit of high tech piloting with SO and Energy Weapon Mastery and it was fun hilariously fun, though I don't think its something I would want to do forever. Then I got rank 5 combat and could turn on my high energy focus twice as much.

In general I'm still trying to wrap my head around the new system and there's a LOT that I'm missing, but there's a lot of cool things too.
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SCC

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #73 on: April 02, 2021, 12:49:02 AM »

But being forced to choose between system spec and phase spec would be a heavy nerf to phase ships, they all are very system-dependent.
I would say that this is fine, especially in the case of Doom.

Hmmm, does T4L effect base + vents or just vents? If its base, then its more like a 10-15% total boost depending on ship as vents make up a big proportion of flux. Still extremely useful though.
Base capacity and dissipation.

bluevulture

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #74 on: April 02, 2021, 02:23:47 AM »

I wrote up the following over the course of the week, so I'm probably re-threading old ground, apologies for that.  :P

So after playing for a bit I want to share some thoughts; maybe not entirely about the skills themselves, but a little bit about the general philosophy of the rework, as well. Because personally I think it kind of clashes with the the fundamental way the game is played.

In my experience, I generally start the game as an explorer, so I usually max-out the salvage/maintenance related skills, then the movement, and only then go into combat/command. however during the game I (and I suspect a lot of people) get a bit bored of simply exploring/salvaging, and when I have enough capital I usually pivot into bounties. Different challenge, gets me more of the "combat meat" to play with, breaks the pace. When I build up my fleet, and get a significant amount of money I usually then get a colony as a base, build that up, then more colonies. Finally I usually tackle the harder challenges - [REDACTED] systems, story missions, get into scraps with the big dogs of the sector. Then I usually stop playing for a bit before starting a new campaign.

My point is, that throughout the course of the game I play it in different ways. My salvage skills might become obsolete at some point, I might only play with cruisers, then get into phase ships, maybe I then decide to be more passive and just manage my colony and trade. And I'm sure I'm not the only player like that, or at least, I'm sure that people don't just pigeonhole themselves into one specific playstyle, like they might in other games where the things you do aren't quite so broad. The "class-based" system just kinda seems a bit to narrow for a game of this scope, with so many different things to do, that change in challenge and importance throughout a given campaign.

With the new update there seems to be more of a push towards being able to do different things better, or at least to make them more engaging and interesting. An example would be resource procurement missions, giving a mission type for people who like the colony aspect more, custom ship orders for people who like to fly around by themselves for longer.

Even the skill system seems to be generally trying to convey that idea, however there are just some parts of it that kind of go against that logic. And the skill descriptions and limits seem very bizarre (and unfun) in some places (I mean 5DP for auxiliary support? Really?)

A lot of skills that one may want seem to be arbitrarily stuck behind their respective "tech" trees, like colony management - what If the player just doesn't like exploration, but still wants to get into colonies later in the game? Sure, he can respec, but he still has to waste a bunch of points on salvaging, d-mods etc. skills, that he may not really find a use for, at that point in the game. Not to mention that the progression of some of the "branches" doesn't really make sense - the later skills don't really feel like a continuation on a theme, but rather just different (space operations and ground operations don't really strike me as appropriate "final" command skills).

Other skills are just extremely specific, like derelict contingent, or wolf pack - they seem to want to encourage different play styles (or at least make them viable), but then they limit the effects to ships with officers, which limits their otherwise cool mechanics. I also feel like a bunch of skills miss effects from the previous system that would make them really meaningful, and were instead replaced with a version that is both inferior and less thematic (I miss more d-mods=less supplies :().

Another thing is that a bunch of choices don't really make sense - I can understand giving you a choice between two contrasting skills (field repairs vs derelict contingent - one gets rid of d-mods, the other makes it easier to live with them), but I don't get why are some skills that work together locked into the same pair (like bulk transport and salvaging). It just means that you have to either deal with the annoyance of not having them at the point of the game where they are most useful, or you have to waste a ton of points to get them. Which brings me to the next thing:

The level cap is just way too low. I get having to make sacrifices and not getting everything, but with the advent of respecing that seems to be kind of a moot point - you can still get (almost) everything when needed, but you have to spend story points to temporarily redo your character. Why not just make it so that after the max level, skills cost SP, in increasing amounts? That way the lock becomes softer, and lets you get the skills you want. It also removes the awkwardness of "permanent" skills.

I definitely get what the rework was going for, but with the exception of some skills, it just feels like the box surrounding skills was reshaped into a more abstract shape, while making it smaller. Dunno, I just feel like the new skills are super underwhelming for the most part, and make the game just less fun in general. Mods will probably fix some parts of the current system (change limits, more levels etc.) but I just feel like the fundamentals of this system are unnecessarily convoluted for the purpose of ... what exactly? The old system had problems sure, but I feel like the new one doesn't really solve them, just reorganises them into different problems. I still much prefer the old systems way of "wasting" skill points, at least that one felt more organic and straightforward.

This has turned into a bit of a rant (sorry not sorry), and in the end this is just my opinion. It might change with time, but we'll see. I still like the game, it's just that the new skills bug me, and make the game feel less fun for me.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2021, 02:27:03 AM by bluevulture »
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