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Author Topic: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5  (Read 59356 times)

Drazhya

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #30 on: March 29, 2021, 07:31:49 PM »

I'll give this a shot

Combat, Tier 1
Helmsmanship is something I view as more-or-less necessary, with the only possible exception being carriers, so having a choice between those two seems good. This breaks down if you want to loop through the tree to get more of it's stuff. This probably won't be the case for all but the tier 2. Armor vs Range and Shield vs Cloak are generally things you don't want both of. A Gryphon pilot would want both tier 5s, but would probably be fine with just missile specialization.
Combat, Tier 2
+20% Damage to Capital Ships and +100% Damage to Weapons/Engines are both huge buffs that I can scarcely imagine passing up. Sure, I want to kill missiles and especially fighters, but at that opportunity cost? And they're less dangerous in this version of the game. I guess I could see it for carriers, again, but they wouldn't get much benefit either. This is one where you might want to loop through to pick up, except that would require spending 1 of your 15 points on Strike Commander.
And here I'll bring up a concern: If I looked at this skill screen and said "I want to be a carrier captain (or commander)"... I wouldn't be able to do that. There's a grand total of one personal carrier skill and one fleet carrier skill. And the fleet carrier skill is like +3 fighter bays' worth of replacement, always, and if you have a carrier in your fleet that you're not bringing into battle or just making great use of, then screw you, that's coming out of your paycheck. Yeah, they were too strong before, but this can't be good design.
Combat, Tier 3
A 1000 range weapon on a capital ship reaches the 1600 mark, and if you can dictate the range of your engagement, then you can make full use of this bonus. However, anything that can reach this range cannot dictate the range of their engagement, and are almost certainly fighting enemies that will get much closer, and are likely to crawl closer under AI control unless you meet some serious restrictions on loadout and/or officer. Alternatively, big happy armor. Impact Mitigation is a lot more valuable than it may first appear. My first campaign I ignored it. I have shields, I'm in a light, fast craft, who needs it? But even then, the Impact of this skill can be huge, saving a lot of pain when shields can't stay up or if you're just a bit incautious.
If Ranged Specialization was based on the maximum range of the weapon rather than the distance of the engagement it could maybe be worth taking for some ships.
I also don't like that the +Projectile Speed effect is attached to this particular skill. My Apogee Plasma Cannons really want that boost and they're not gonna hit at those ranges.
Combat, Tier 4
Simple, straightforward, are you driving a shield ship or a phase ship? Or are you a madlad in a shield-override ship, in which case screw you?
Combat, Tier 5
Hoo boy, these are ship-dependent. Missile ships tend to have either autoforges or fast missile racks, and Missile Specialization is both on one, where Systems Expertise is one or the other. Systems Expertise does a lot for some ships (most triumphant example being the Doom) and nothing for others (Paragon). As this is the last tier, there's no pressure to take one if your ship can't benefit from it, though on the flip side it's disappointing to reach the end of this progression and just skip on the final step.
What I really don't like about this one is that if you can't benefit from the general skill, you can't benefit from the specialist skill either. The ships that don't have systems that synergize with Systems Expertise are not missile ships.
Final thought: If there were three options per level, one level could be armor vs shields vs phase and another level could be systems vs point-defense vs missiles or something.

Leadership, Tier 1
The recovery cost limitations are so low that you can't make much use of these. As much as I like the idea of bigger bonuses with smaller fleets, it doesn't really work well when you need reserve forces, nor does it work well with how things scale up over time. And since it's recovery cost and not deployment points, it further encourages you to keep less-impactful d-mods on your ships, rather than trying to get a pristine fleet, which I don't like. There was already some of this encourage for keeping your costs down, and I let that slide because I like to keep my costs down, but this is starting to get annoying.
If it scaled with player level (so Auxiliary Support was, say 1*level instead of 5), or was dependent on the size of your deployed fleet, it would be better. As it is, it is rather at odds with the game's design. You're supposed to be building up to bigger fleets to take bigger challenges, and if that just lowered the bonus, then fine, but it currently gets lowered into obsolescence and that's not fine.
As for these particular skills - +10% fleet damage would be great if it was actually that (and maybe too strong for a fleet of any size), Assault Package with the buff could be relevant for a Venture, and an Escort Package Phaeton or something could be okay... maybe. I don't like that militarizing my ships for burn and sensors pulls from this bonus.
Leadership, Tier 2
With the overabundance of enemy officers, you will quite regularly encounter fleets with full nav and ecm, so countering that is a serious concern. What was easy to spec into before is now... not. And as much as I'd like to have 3 frigates hanging around giving me the full +20% nav, that ties up three officers and is mutually-exclusive with the +120 seconds operating time that would actually keep them on the field. And I could loop around for both, which would require going through the horrible, awful, no-good tier before it AGAIN.
Wolfpack tactics is kind of neat though. 3 Tempests with officers have been handy, though I haven't quite figured out how to keep them on the field for an entire battle yet. Maybe if I gave them both Helmsmanship and Auxiliary Thrusters they could dodge everything.
Frigate-exclusive command point recovery is just weird. Why is that a thing?
Leadership, Tier 3
Combat Readiness is really great. Fleet-wide combat readiness is really great. The limit on this one is high enough that it doesn't fall into worthlessness even endgame... barely. Still not good.
Fighter replacement as the one bonus on an entire skill could maybe be good enough in a big carrier fleet... but it diminishes with number of fighter bays. Yeah, nah. Again, if I say "I want to be a carrier commander"... there isn't really a skill for that. And if I'm not saying "I want to be a carrier commander", why would I even look at this thing?
Leadership, Tier 4
Originally I thought +levels to 8 officers would just be better than +2 officers. In exploring around the sector, I've picked up a couple Steady level 7s though, which I suppose I'll keep, and a few level 6s as well. So it's, what +levels to 4 officers, instead? And I've still got more of the sector to explore.
What I don't like about this choice is that I can't really analyze it. How can I know which one will be more valuable to me? I don't think I can. If I look at Combat Tier 4, I can say "If I'm gonna drive a phase ship, then the phase ship skill is more valuable to me", but I can't think of any parameters I can set under which I can analyze the comparative value of these skills.
Leadership, Tier 5
There are four colony skills in this game. If I say "I want to be the best colony manager", I can spend my 15 maximum skill points to pick up 3 of these 4. Not that I would, because I like to play for the long game, and in the long game I have alpha cores to do that for me. Though I suppose, in this version, I can respec when I don't need them anymore.
Aaanyway... I don't really care. If I want to get serious about having a big bad ground force I'll take Ground Operations. If I want more money I'll beef up my combat skills and whack some bounties. If I want to defend my colonies I'll build up some defenses and in the worst case, I'll bring my fleet. I'm not feeling these skills.

Industry, Tier 1
With the limit in place, Bulk Transport's capacity bonuses are less about having a more effective merchant fleet and more about doing away with a few logistical ships altogether - like having an Atlas and half a Prometheus without actually having them. The burn bonus would be great with Auxiliary Support so you're not militarizing ships to get them up to speed and taking away from the actually-militarized ships' bonuses... except I still want the sensor bonuses.
Salvaging is handy for extending exploration forays and picking up more weapon salvage... probably doesn't give more AI cores. Might be something to stick a point in early game and then respec out of when you've kitted out your fleet.
Neither of these bonuses are very good, and I wouldn't like to be stuck with them all game, but I guess that's no longer a concern, so...?
Industry, Tier 2
Damage Control mostly reduces the hurt when you screw up, and I'd much rather prevent damage than reduce it. However, I believe the faster repairs applies to EMP damage, which is really handy. However, it's competing with +15% readiness and +60 operating time, which is yes, so no. And Damage Control isn't good enough to circle back for.
Industry, Tier 3
If I said to myself "I want to lower my fleet's operating costs", this is the tier where I'd make that happen. There are two skills for that here, and I'd get one of them. If I said to myself "I care about doing literally anything else", I wouldn't care about either of these skills. So I think this is a bad tier, these shouldn't be competing. There just isn't enough difference between lowering fuel costs and lowering supply costs. I like them both, I want them both... and if I didn't want one them, I can't imagine a situation where I'd still want the other. And that's one thing, and another thing is wanting to spend precious skills points going through the previous tiers to get them.
Industry, Tier 4
Field Repairs. I remember having this skill in my previous campaign, and I miss those days of instantly-removed damage and fast repairs. But that maximum! In my current fleet, I'm looking at +18% and 9%. That's just not good enough. Maybe if I had a heavily d-modded fleet to bring my deployment recovery cost down... oh look, this skill also passively removes d-mods. What.
I'm not going to comment on Derelict Contingent. The idea of actively pursuing a heavily-d-modded fleet is vaguely interesting, but I'm ultimately uninterested in trying to analyze this.
Industry, Tier 5
If I want one of them, I want both of them, which would require 2/3rds of my skill points to achieve. If I don't want one of them, do I really want the other? ...Well, maybe. An affective +2 colonies can be handy for multiple things. And It's something I would consider taking on my current run if I didn't have to go through the rest of Industry to get there.

Final Thoughts: I want to like this skill system, but as things stand I don't. I think 3 options per tier, 4 tiers, could work a little better, depending on what the new skills are and how it's all organized. I think it's a mistake to put all the colony skills at the end, mutually-exclusive, rather than letting the player spec into them.
...And I just realized that I completely skipped Technology. How did that happen? Well, this is already long, maybe I'll post something on that later. Short version: Special Modifications is the strongest skill in the game, Automated Ships is a weak novelty, skill maximums continue to be annoying in how they're implemented, the first two skills are really great and you can just take both after getting to Special Modifications, Gunnery Implants and Energy Weapon Mastery are both great, especially for Frigates and Electronic Warfare is more-or-less necessary for keeping your range, I completely forgot that Fighter Uplink exists, Flux Regulation is also good, even with the limit, Phase Corps would be nice without the limit and if it wasn't competing with the really good stuff.

Edit: I just realized that there's another part to why the game feels harder than it used to. The AI's masses of frigate officers gives them nav that I no longer have and more ECM than I'm used to. Full nav and ECM (and other speed/range bonuses) is how I chumped the Blade Breakers. It's a big deal.
Three Tempests with Gunnery Implant officers and built-in Nav Relays may be astronomically valuable. If they can stay alive.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2021, 08:21:28 PM by Drazhya »
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trucane

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #31 on: March 29, 2021, 08:00:34 PM »

For someone that usually gives up their own combat skills to purely maximize the fleet this new skill system is a huge disappointment. The complete lack of elite skills in anything other than skill that only affect your own ship is very annoying and feels super imbalanced. Also a lot of the skills right now seem very useless in general and the "1 of 2" choices seem very straight forward in a lot of the cases. Lastly the small amount of points just makes me question why I would bother with most of the industry stuff as it generally gives no benefit in battle.

Was very excited to finally get 0.9.5 and I expected to really dislike the new skill system but so far it's worse than I expected it to be which is very concerning.
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Goumindong

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #32 on: March 29, 2021, 08:41:25 PM »

Quote
Helmsmanship. Piloted ship: +50% maneuverability, +10% top speed. If elite: 0-flux boost works if ship doesnt generate flux.
Thought the same! I'm thorn though, because it's arguibly less convenient, but more useful.
The way the old version worked is if your  flux didn't go past 1%, and shields constantly produce like 3 or 4 flux which is instantly dumped away, and the current version focuses on production. Ergo, you can't passively use the bonus while shielded.
But there's a new caveat: Any time you're not using flux you're faster. So hold fire and disable the shield and you can make a faster but dangerous run to safety, and you also have way WAY more maneuverability when your ship is overloaded or venting flux.
Deffinitely makes for more engaging gameplay in the heat of the moment, but I miss being able to stay tucked inside the shield when traveling to new encounters.

The Hyperion can teleport at max flux... because the teleporter requires you to have zero flux boost engaged not to have zero flux to use. (SO on the hyperon should let you teleport with your shield up too but i haven't tried that)
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SCC

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #33 on: March 30, 2021, 01:22:40 AM »

For someone that usually gives up their own combat skills to purely maximize the fleet this new skill system is a huge disappointment. The complete lack of elite skills in anything other than skill that only affect your own ship is very annoying and feels super imbalanced.
Leadership tree encourages you to spend SPs on officers and colonies, Technology - on ships, Industry - on ships and colonies, and Combat... Well, it has no incentives to spend story points any different, than if you had no skills at all. You can elite personal skills precisely so that personal skills influence story point usage at all.

TaLaR

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #34 on: March 30, 2021, 01:42:44 AM »

After playing a bit more, officers skills (both) seem rather lackluster - you can always (is there a cap?) hire more mercenaries, so the only thing these skills really do is an upkeep discount. And both are permanent, so with 5 locked in tech and 4 in leadership, your build is largely fixed for rest of game, which is quite a big drawback.
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Thaago

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #35 on: March 30, 2021, 02:16:50 AM »

How exactly do the mercenaries work? I've only a encountered a few and didn't like their skill breakdown, so haven't hired any yet.

Leadership has some pretty nice bonuses for early game, but I think the whole tree might be a trap for mid and late game unless specifically going for the wolfpack energy frigate/SO destroyer fleet. The 90 deployment point scaling for the damage boost and 180 point scaling for the CR boost are... well, they are just flat out worse than the boosts the technology skill gives. Coordinated Manevuers is worth it later game, but only if I can find 6-8 mercenaries to put in destroyers and frigates.
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TaLaR

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #36 on: March 30, 2021, 02:31:19 AM »

Mercenaries are just over-priced and pre-built officers, hired for a story point (but with 100% refund, so not an issue). I haven't had one for whole year, so I'm not sure what happens then (contract is stated for 1 year).

Well, as I've found Afflictor is incredibly OP in this release, so getting Wolfpack is worth it for piloted ship benefits alone. Officer'd frigates are a gravy at this point.

+15% CR is nice too, while your fleet isn't too large. And I upgrade my fleet in big steps:
- starter 10 burn fleet, before I have point to spare on navigation.
- 9 burn fleet, Falcons, DEs and frigates + piloted Afflictors doing all the heavy lifting. Fleet's role is just distraction and finishing blows to crippled capitals (because finishing some with Afflictor without dying yourself to death explosion can be rather difficult). This type of fleet fits nicely within 180 DP limit. This is already enough to handle highest level bounties (10+ capitals, 15+ lvl 5-7 officers), but only due to Afflictor being OP.
- 8 burn fleet + 2 Tugs. Focus shifts towards proper cruisers and Odyssey/Conquest.
- 7 burn fleet + 4 Tugs. Big capital fleet.

Only 7 or 8 burn fleets should be large enough to out-scale 180 DP bonuses.

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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #37 on: March 30, 2021, 09:27:18 AM »

Mercenaries are just over-priced and pre-built officers, hired for a story point (but with 100% refund, so not an issue). I haven't had one for whole year, so I'm not sure what happens then (contract is stated for 1 year).

Well, as I've found Afflictor is incredibly OP in this release, so getting Wolfpack is worth it for piloted ship benefits alone. Officer'd frigates are a gravy at this point.

+15% CR is nice too, while your fleet isn't too large. And I upgrade my fleet in big steps:
- starter 10 burn fleet, before I have point to spare on navigation.
- 9 burn fleet, Falcons, DEs and frigates + piloted Afflictors doing all the heavy lifting. Fleet's role is just distraction and finishing blows to crippled capitals (because finishing some with Afflictor without dying yourself to death explosion can be rather difficult). This type of fleet fits nicely within 180 DP limit. This is already enough to handle highest level bounties (10+ capitals, 15+ lvl 5-7 officers), but only due to Afflictor being OP.
- 8 burn fleet + 2 Tugs. Focus shifts towards proper cruisers and Odyssey/Conquest.
- 7 burn fleet + 4 Tugs. Big capital fleet.

Only 7 or 8 burn fleets should be large enough to out-scale 180 DP bonuses.

I don't think the game should be balanced around a strategy that relies on abusing one very specific OP ship/skill/weapon combination... I personally find killing everything with an OP frigate to be pretty tedious after a while, so I have no interest in abusing afflictors. I will only go for that if I can't beat something with my standard approach of warships.

Also, the whole 'bonus xp refunds skill points' thing isn't quite right IMO because it takes so darn long to actually get those skill points back. Especially since I have a massive bonus xp buffer, meaning I won't be using the refunded bonus xp for a long time (when skill points will cost a lot more xp). I have a 44 million bonus xp buffer right now :P, so that bonus xp will not apply until I am at a higher level where I get less skill points/bonus xp, i.e. it is less than a full refund, and a very delayed one as well.

Leadership has some pretty nice bonuses for early game, but I think the whole tree might be a trap for mid and late game unless specifically going for the wolfpack energy frigate/SO destroyer fleet.
I came to the same conclusion. Tier 1 skills are both kinda dead skills in a large fleet, tier 2 requires a significant number of officers in frigates to get any benefit, so dead unless you play in a specific frigate centered way. Tier 3 skills are fine, but a bit lackluster in a big fleet, not worth taking the tier 1-2 skills IMO (Crew training currently would give my fleet +8% CR and +15s ppt, and my fleet is currently 12 cruisers, one destroyer and 5 frigates + civ ships, firmly a mid-game fleet IMO). Officer skills are nice. The tier 5 skills are also fine, but if I want to spend skills on colonies, the tier 5 industry skills seem just as good if not better, and AI cores will likely be the very long term solution. So I get one skill in 5 tiers that I really want late game (officer skills)... I'd rather get tier 5 skills from the other 3 trees.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2021, 10:10:41 AM by intrinsic_parity »
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Igncom1

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #38 on: March 30, 2021, 09:40:36 AM »

I haven't played for very long so far 3-4 hours but I've been having fun. Lots of new missions at the bar always gives me something to do if I don't have anything else going on.

Not sure what to do with my story points, I've been occasionally spending them on one of my officers to when I wanted to dodge an unwanted patrol that insisted on appearing where I did want it to. I don't think I'll be spending them on my destroyers and frigates right now as there doesn't seem to be much of a point. Got a fun group of high techs with a modified aggressive officer and a random reckless max levelled officer with an elite energy weapons skill that I got out of a stasis pod. Badass.

It's love not needing to speak into ship skills or campaign skills. I'm sure someone will calculate the perfect set of skills to pick in the new tree, but I'm going wide (one from every category) and just picking up whatever is helpful to me as I go.

Just milling around, making money, working on contracts that seem feasible to do and exploring/salvaging whenever a mission has taken me out there before. (seems natural to only go out to these dead systems when you have a mission to do so rather then just surveying with a single dram or whatever)

Got a little bit of cool archo-tech which sounds really cool. But I am planning on eventually making a colony rather then on a cheap habitable world, on a resource rich hell hole for max profit. Just gotta decide what that world will be? (+2 volatiles, +3 ores or try to find an organics deposit? Or somewhere to use my archo-tech specifically?)

Met a cool librarian which was nice, and bought the location of a blueprint for a ship with a name I don't entirely recognise, but it sounds like I might have to fight to claim it.

Lots of fun fighting and exploration to go! When I can afford the time and excuse to plough the outer reaches of the sector!
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Sutopia

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #39 on: March 30, 2021, 11:10:00 AM »

Industry L5 is totally wasted point since almost all industries now has booster item to +2 production, given you work hard enough to find them.
I’d spare the industry T5 and get both tech T1. Those two combined are no joke!

Combat tree is still mediocre at best unless there are some kind of overpowered super flagship.
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Goumindong

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #40 on: March 30, 2021, 11:18:15 AM »

Leadership has some pretty nice bonuses for early game, but I think the whole tree might be a trap for mid and late game unless specifically going for the wolfpack energy frigate/SO destroyer fleet. The 90 deployment point scaling for the damage boost and 180 point scaling for the CR boost are... well, they are just flat out worse than the boosts the technology skill gives. Coordinated Manevuers is worth it later game, but only if I can find 6-8 mercenaries to put in destroyers and frigates.

I don't think so. Because it depends on what skills you're taking. Leadership does have the "small frigate wolfpack" structure but it also has a "mixed unit tactics" structure. So to begin with the scaling bonuses are a pretty simple construction: You get Value * Limit/Deployment points with a max of 1. So if you have 180 DP you get a 5% weapon damage bonus. And as a result we can look at the leadership tree in that vein. The leadership tree has as "wolfpack" option but it also has a "mixed tactics: option

1L is clearly for wolfpack/frigate fleets. Its pretty marginal. 2R is for mixed tactics. You can get huge boosts and move a "civilian ship" into combat duty effectively reducing the overall DP of your fleet. Or it lets you utilize some of those combat clunkers more effectively. Lets take the Atlas Mk II at 24 DP. It still receives +187% bonus from the packages. A colosus MK 2 receives +562% bonus. Which comes to 66.2% bonus to flux dissipation, 66.2 armor DR! A Venture still gets +300% and so could theoretically get to 2170 effective armor(1980 plus 190 for the purposes of DR only). And could have 784 minimum armor with derelict contingent... That is one hell of a brick to stick in your enemies way.

2L is for mixed fleets and 2R is for player frigates/destroyers. 2L is for mixed fleets because the bonuses stop seriously accruing at 3.5 frigates or 7 destroyers. 3.5 frigates isn't a lot. So its quite easy to have a few of them with officers. Especially once you add in 4L

3L is for wolfpacks but 3R is for mixed tactics. It only applies to the number of fighter wings you have in a fleet and the bonus is pretty big. 6 Fighter wings is 2 Mora. 12 fighter wings is 4 Mora. That is... a lot of ships when you're mixing your tactics.

4L is for wolfpacks but 4R is for mixed tactics. More officers means you get an easier method to mix. You can now more easily run 2 Mora and 3 frigates plus 5 other officer-ed ships including your own battleship
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #41 on: March 30, 2021, 12:26:02 PM »

Long winded discussion of specific skills that I don't want to detract from my main point:
Spoiler
1L is clearly for wolfpack/frigate fleets. Its pretty marginal. 2R is for mixed tactics. You can get huge boosts and move a "civilian ship" into combat duty effectively reducing the overall DP of your fleet. Or it lets you utilize some of those combat clunkers more effectively. Lets take the Atlas Mk II at 24 DP. It still receives +187% bonus from the packages. A colosus MK 2 receives +562% bonus. Which comes to 66.2% bonus to flux dissipation, 66.2 armor DR! A Venture still gets +300% and so could theoretically get to 2170 effective armor(1980 plus 190 for the purposes of DR only). And could have 784 minimum armor with derelict contingent... That is one hell of a brick to stick in your enemies way.
You're analyzing the bonuses when you have one ship in your fleet that benefits from them and ignoring the effect of non-combat ships that still require MS to have reasonable sensor profiles... That one ship will matter in early mid-game, but in end game? Not really. My fleet still has 40 dp of non-combat MS ships (5 colossus to have a reasonable cargo capacity for exploration and a prometheus). If you build your fleet in a specific way, you can leverage it, but it doesn't scale into late game, and it's limiting the way you can play a lot, just like wolf pack tactics. We all agree that the skills can be quite nice early on when your fleet is small enough to leverage the bonuses, but this is not a generally useful skill, it's a niche skill that's best in early game.

2L is for mixed fleets and 2R is for player frigates/destroyers. 2L is for mixed fleets because the bonuses stop seriously accruing at 3.5 frigates or 7 destroyers. 3.5 frigates isn't a lot. So its quite easy to have a few of them with officers. Especially once you add in 4L
Once again, 3 officers in frigates is very manageable early game, but in mid-late game, those frigates don't last long enough for a whole fight (because you can't also have wolfpack tactics), so now you need to retreat more than a third of your officers halfway through the fight and you have a bunch of unofficered cruisers on the field fighting against the enemy who often has a lot more officers than you. If this could be combined with wolfpack tactics easily, it would be good, but that costs 7 skill points...

3L is for wolfpacks but 3R is for mixed tactics. It only applies to the number of fighter wings you have in a fleet and the bonus is pretty big. 6 Fighter wings is 2 Mora. 12 fighter wings is 4 Mora. That is... a lot of ships when you're mixing your tactics.
The skill is good, but it definitely hurts that ships like the tempest and odyssey cut into it without really benefiting from it. Also, your enemies will happily have many more fighter bays, and replacement rate doesn't really make up for big differenced in volume in my experience, you really need to have a significant number of your own IMO. I currently have 3 herons and a tempest in mid game giving me like 25% bonuses, which, don't get me wrong, would be very good, but I intend to add an odyssey, 1-2 more herons, maybe a legion etc. in the late game. At that point, it will be a fine skill (10-15% ish) but not worth two prerequisite skills that do very little for me IMO.
[close]

For me, at the end of the day, it's not like any of the leadership skills are useless, it's just that the low level ones (that are prerequisite for all the others) fall off a lot harder than skills in other trees, and the opportunity cost of having them is too high compared to other skills I can get. Maybe they are still better than the personal combat skills, but I want to have fun piloting, and the tech tree is just reaaally good, so they're sort of competing against QOL industry skills I don't want to give up, and that are super helpful for exploration (which I do a lot of). IDK I almost want the level cap to be 20.
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Thaago

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #42 on: March 30, 2021, 12:35:19 PM »

The leadership carrier skill is excellent and I think a really good example of game design that promotes varied tactics.

As I play more with the leadership tree: combat cruisers have very little place in leadership endgame fleets. They take twice as many officers and story points for hullmods as capitals: those officers could be on destroyers or frigates, which give fleetwide nav and ECCM boosts to your capitals! Anyone have thoughts on that? I'm very fond of both Dominators and the new Champ, but I suspect my fleet would just be better if I went Onslaught + Destroyer instead. Except for fuel usage.
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TaLaR

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #43 on: March 30, 2021, 12:42:16 PM »

Carrier boost in leadership competes vs CR boost - which is more universally useful and scales to larger fleet.

On a side-note - are officers on carriers even worth using now? There are only 2 personal carrier skills, and they aren't particularly strong. I feel like an officer on a frigate + officer-less carrier is better use of officer resource than officer on a (somewhat larger) carrier. Scarab + Drover vs Heron would have made a good example, but it's 23 vs 20 dp, so not an exact match.
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Thaago

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Re: Impressions about skills in 0.9.5
« Reply #44 on: March 30, 2021, 12:54:53 PM »

I would say officers aren't worth it except maybe on an astral or a Legion. Non-officered carriers work well, as do non-officered missile ships, because most of the "missing" bonuses from missile spec are in ECCM now! Which I didn't know!
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