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[Lucky33]

As far as I know, with current balance, fleet composition tier list would probably be something like this: phase ships and derelict contingent at the top, then high-tech with a Radiant, then most other fleet compositions, then low-tech fleets.

Well enough? How many fights are you doing with them at 500% difficulty rating? And how fast do you farm SPs after lvl15?

What are those 500% fights? I forgot the game has an XP bonus for fighting at a disadvantage until now. About SPs, I earn them at a rate of roughly one per bounty, thanks to a massive pile of bonus XP I can't get dispose of quickly enough.

[Phase ships are extremely high reward high risk ships, for lack of sustainable defenses you get near invulnerability.

Heh heh heh heh heh heh...

Yeah. 1 per bounty.

8 officers. 8 SP to mentor, 8 SP for elite skills, 16 SP for built-in modules for 8 ships. 32 SP.

32 bounties to try a new "normal" build.

[Mordodrukow]

Made a spreadshit for better visualisation. I cant understand some Alex's patchnotes (and i still play RC9, because i dont want to start new game before some mods will be updated). Especially this one:

- Gunnery Implants:
    Switched elite effect (-50% recoil) with the electronic-warfare-boosting effect
     Note: REDACTED fleets always have the elite level and are not affected by this
- Now also applies a 1% ECM bonus on cruisers and capital ships

So, pls, leave a comments there, how exactly to edit, i ll apply.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IWhaeedEB2xDvt9qDsTHY4SFBVtaqz83ShVbu1miYFk/edit?usp=sharing

[Lucky33]

Now Gunnery Implants provide boost to recoil suppression as a default effect but the ECM one is elite.

[Mordodrukow]

Ah. Got it. I forgot that Gunnery implants have ECM bonus and thought that the bonus was taken somewhere from Electronic warfare.

Updated.

[SCC]

Yeah. 1 per bounty.

8 officers. 8 SP to mentor, 8 SP for elite skills, 16 SP for built-in modules for 8 ships. 32 SP.

32 bounties to try a new "normal" build.

Assuming you have nothing but your current fleet. Ships in my storage that don't fit my current doctrine have a total of 21 s-mods. I also have 30 SPs that I didn't spend yet, but I hire enough mercenaries to always be at 2-3 of them, so that number could be higher. Admittedly, majority of my officers were found in cryopods, so I didn't really spend story points on them. I wonder how important making sure your officers are perfect is now, it was something I just kinda eye-balled in 0.9.1 and in this run in 0.95.
Though if I wanted a radical change of fleet composition instead of gradual, I would probably start a new game isntead.

[Lucky33]

Yeah. 1 per bounty.

8 officers. 8 SP to mentor, 8 SP for elite skills, 16 SP for built-in modules for 8 ships. 32 SP.

32 bounties to try a new "normal" build.

Assuming you have nothing but your current fleet. Ships in my storage that don't fit my current doctrine have a total of 21 s-mods. I also have 30 SPs that I didn't spend yet, but I hire enough mercenaries to always be at 2-3 of them, so that number could be higher. Admittedly, majority of my officers were found in cryopods, so I didn't really spend story points on them. I wonder how important making sure your officers are perfect is now, it was something I just kinda eye-balled in 0.9.1 and in this run in 0.95.
Though if I wanted a radical change of fleet composition instead of gradual, I would probably start a new game isntead.

Yes, I counted the basic minimum. And no, starting new game requires re-enabling all the contacts, boosting all reputation etc etc etc. More importantly its beyond the point. What is - playing at x5 difficulty saves time. But not for the legacy fleets. Their owners have to suffer the consequences of full time farming job.

[Thaago]

The impression that I'm getting from what you are saying is that with the new skills, phase ships are so powerful as to make other ships obsolete. This has been shown by a lot of people to be true, though its more an existing problem from past releases that was magnified by certain new skills than a new problem (phase ships in past versions were also extremely strong). What I don't see is this as being a general problem with the skill system. Its a specific problem with how phase ships interact with the skill system. Just like how Derelict Contingent is a specific problem with how D mods interact with the skill system. And how Radiants are a specific problem with automated ships, etc.

The problem IMO comes from two player preferences: optimization and varied content. Each player has a different amount of desire for those preferences just by who they are. Currently, there is no problem for a player with a strong preference for one and not the others: optimizers can grab phase ships and be happy. Varied content players can grab a lot of different fleet compositions and still beat everything. No problem. But a player with a preference for BOTH is in trouble, because phase ships are so much stronger than anything else. They can't satisfy both preferences simultaneously because there is an unbalanced option.

To me, it seems simpler to fix this problem by dealing with outliers (either too strong or too weak) than by dealing with the median. Both because its more work to change the median, and because it would break the balance on every mod that is attempting to be balanced. If the median can solve game challenges and different options are roughly balanced, then both optimizers are happy, varied content people are happy, and people with both preferences are happy because there are multiple "local maxima" of playstyles that are all competitive.

[Lucky33]

You missed my point entirely.

Phase and automated ships not just good or better, the whole gameplay with them is something else.

You get xp faster -> you overtake everything else in progression. You do not need large fleet -> don't have to spend skill points on the logistics. Again, resulting in player getting comparatively stronger. Do not bother about combined arms or officers? Same thing, goodbye Leadership.

And yes, this is the problem with the skill system because originally, prior to nerfs, legacy system had something to offer. It was not as good as phase/automated but decent enough comparatively to the phase/auto. Although I picked phase doctrine at the beginning of my run, later I was respeccing into different things. It is when the nerfs struck. And opened the whole freaking rift between new and legacy. Contrast was too strong.

And again. all I hear is nerf-nerf-nerf. Nerf this, nerf that and look, there is something shiny, too different and not like the others so lets nerf it too for a good measure. Why did the new skill system was even implemented in the first place? After all the fixing there will be only some shortened and bland version of 0.91 left. Do you really think that replacing the whole phase lineup and the player controlled Radiant with some neutered versions is actually a good idea? It is the real fix to the problem? I guess you never actually tried to take a candy from a baby. It will be the end of vanilla as it cease to be the source of the new content.

[Thaago]

Uhh, did you actually read anything I wrote? You basically restated the exact meaning of my first sentence (after saying I missed the point) then ignored everything I said, including some pretty detailed reasoning about why you DO have a point from your perspective, and why other people might disagree with you from their perspective, what the problem is, and possible ways to fix it.

[TaLaR]

Phase benefits more from player piloting than anything else. There is just too much untapped potential that AI misses entirely. This was true in 0.91 and became even more so in 0.95.

In general, impact from conventional player piloted ships has been nerfed with transition from 0.91 to 0.95. Less offense (weaker general-purpose offensive skills) and mobility for player (CM frigates are inaccessible due to sharing tier with Wolfpack + DE alternative needs too many of them vs CM just being a default maxed out buff in 0.91). Almost every enemy ship has officer now - so the only sources of raw player stat advantage may be sub-optimal skill distribution on enemies, and having multiple elite skills (most elite effects are meh anyway).

But phase did benefit where the rest lost - new skill system and phase ships do synergyze quite well, creating this:

Spoiler

[close]

I do like phase cloak gameplay and don't want it overnerfed (looking at fighters, now barely above complete uselessness). But this is too much, I simply have no incentive to pilot anything else.

[Lucky33]

Uhh, did you actually read anything I wrote? You basically restated the exact meaning of my first sentence (after saying I missed the point) then ignored everything I said, including some pretty detailed reasoning about why you DO have a point from your perspective, and why other people might disagree with you from their perspective, what the problem is, and possible ways to fix it.

You said that the problem is the phase/auto ships being op and not the skill system. I said that it is the other way around. Due to skill nerfs the legacy has no longer anything decent to offer. So it is the problem with the skill system and not the problem of the phase/auto ships being op.

The skill system no longer has skills what make legacy fleets competitive enough.

This way your whole argument about some work needed to make a fix is false. Work has already been done. Reverting the skill system back to the original 0.95 will fix the problem.

[Thaago]

Wait, you think the skill changes between .95 initial release and now were that drastic and BAD for non-phase ships?

Skills:
Gunnery Implants:
Switched elite effect (-50% recoil) with the electronic-warfare-boosting effect

Pure buff for ballistic ships and stops non-Remnant fleets from destroying the player with ECM. Significantly lowers the value of Gunnery implants on frigates like phase ships.

Now also applies a 1% ECM bonus on cruisers and capital ships
Electronic Warfare/ECM: reduced maximum range reduction to 10% (was: 20%)
Coordinated Maneuvers: now also applies a 1% nav rating bonus on cruisers and capital ships

More buffs for non phase frigates. ECCM to 10% is a major reduction in remnant fleet power.

Energy Weapon Mastery: reduced max bonus damage to 30% (was: 50%)

Nerf to phase ships and high tech ships, including endgame threats, makes this an indirect buff to everything else.

Impact Mitigation:
Changed effective armor bonus to 50 (was: 150)
This is now the elite effect
Old elite effect (-50% kinetic damage taken by armor) removed

This may be overnerfed but its still an ok skill for ships with high armor. It is a much weaker skill for high tech ships and other ships with light hulls like phase ships and remnants. With how many officers enemies have, the enemy got easier to kill, which buffs all player ship builds offense at the expense of defense. Given that phase ships generally avoid damage rather than tank in the first place, this narrows their margin of error but doesn't impact their 'ideal' use case on defense.

Increased deployment point and fighter bay thresholds for some of the fleetwide skills
More skill adjustments etc will be forthcoming, but are not hotfix material

Buffs to larger fleets and buffs to carrier counts. Again, more buffs for non phase fleets.

Lets see, the helmsmanship elite perk also got removed from overloading ships, which makes it easier to kill enemies that overload on both sides. I would say thats just an increase in lethality across the board, no real change of relative compositions. If anything I'd say its a buff to non-phase ships: phase usually kills with sudden alpha bursts of AM blasters, phase lances/blaster, or mines rather than sustained gunfire on overloaded targets.

So... what were the skill changes I missed? I looked through the patch notes for changes and these are the only ones I can find, and they don't really seem to benefit phase ships that much if at all. Are you talking about built in SO getting removed, because thats not part of the skill system, its part of ship building.

[SCC]

0.95: 0.7.2 boogaloo

[Lucky33]

Wait, you think the skill changes between .95 initial release and now were that drastic and BAD for non-phase ships?

I'm saying this the whole time. Welcome to the discussion.

• You can no longer destroy enemy fleets with your ECM.
• You can no longer have the synergy between EWM and IM.
• You can no longer have free SO.

That's three major legacy strategy what made it competitive.

[Thaago]

Thank you for the welcome, but I think I'll be leaving... I think all your points are unsupported by any reasoning and dubious at best considering that me and everyone else are using the so called "legacy" ships to defeat endgame challenges. And you again either didn't read or didn't choose to attempt and argue against any of my points that disagree with you, so there's not that much point in me trying to convince you.