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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: 0.95- First Impressions  (Read 15788 times)

Eji1700

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Re: 0.95- First Impressions
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2021, 04:35:32 AM »

For me, what really annoys me with the skill system is how 2 skills that a player is going to want are right next to each other and mutually exclusive, like sensors and navigation on tech. Navigation is great at all times during the game, and sensors if of particular use for early game “the target is in the heart/edges of a system” missions. Yet to get both, I have to wait until level 6 at the least to get both.

The two level 5 perks of command are really good for colonies and building up your industrial base. But to get both you have to run through the command tree twice. This has a nice synergy with Tier 4, as you get more and better officers. Thats actually good. Tiers 2 and 3 are a mess, as your forced to spec into frigate focus and carrier focus. So to optimise your colonies, your forced to waste skill points on specializations that at least one of which you’re probably not going to use (unless you are a massive fan of the Shepard).

Because picking a Tier 1 skill means I’m locked out of the other Tier 1 skill for 5 levels, it’s now extremely hard to pick even starting skills. Yes there’s respec, but I feel like continuously switching my skill between navigation and sensors is extremely exploity and not at all how the system was intended to be used.

Upside though, I’m glad I no longer have to invest 6 skill points in salvaging before I can salvage research stations and the like.

I think some of this is an example of jumping the gun/new patch old expectations.

The higher speed of everything in general makes navigation less mandatory in my eyes (especially with built ins) while the +3 burn to slow moving opens huge doors for going dark stuff.  I haven't messed around with it much but this seems like a much more legit choice than people are currently giving credit for.

Further I do think it's very much supposed to be somewhat like character classes, and I think it's a pretty good "build your own" style.  Clearly you've got your "pure" classes and it's expected you'll go down a few trees and be some sort of hybrid, and while there does need to be some tweaking i'm sure (yeah built ins seems realllllly good) I think how much you like that style just comes down to taste.  As i said i hate games where you're just going to get everything anyways.  I like distinct builds. 

Obviously either solution can be modded into, i feel like the "get everything" one is easier to mod into from the current system, but I haven't poked at it.

As for "getting both choices" I don't hate that you have to wrap around.  It has an elegance to it, but I do wonder if it shouldn't just be "have to pick the next tier or two before you come back" sort of thing.  Loses elegance but is certainly less frustrating.

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Destructively Phased

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Re: 0.95- First Impressions
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2021, 05:11:20 AM »

I think some of this is an example of jumping the gun/new patch old expectations.

The higher speed of everything in general makes navigation less mandatory in my eyes (especially with built ins) while the +3 burn to slow moving opens huge doors for going dark stuff.  I haven't messed around with it much but this seems like a much more legit choice than people are currently giving credit for.

Further I do think it's very much supposed to be somewhat like character classes, and I think it's a pretty good "build your own" style.  Clearly you've got your "pure" classes and it's expected you'll go down a few trees and be some sort of hybrid, and while there does need to be some tweaking i'm sure (yeah built ins seems realllllly good) I think how much you like that style just comes down to taste.  As i said i hate games where you're just going to get everything anyways.  I like distinct builds. 

Obviously either solution can be modded into, i feel like the "get everything" one is easier to mod into from the current system, but I haven't poked at it.

As for "getting both choices" I don't hate that you have to wrap around.  It has an elegance to it, but I do wonder if it shouldn't just be "have to pick the next tier or two before you come back" sort of thing.  Loses elegance but is certainly less frustrating.

I haven’t noticed a massive boost in speed, early game I’m still getting a burn of 9/10, so the +1/2 of navigation is still good. And I’m still going to want transverse jump. Navigation is still a priority on my shopping list.

But my main issue is that even in the “pure” classes, I don’t feel like I’m specialising. As already stated, in looping through the command tree twice to specialize my colonies, I’ve also specialized into military conversions, frigate swarms and carrier doctrine. I don’t feel like I’ve made a character who has specialized into command, I feel like someone who walked up to the buffet table and picked a bit of everything.

The technology tree has piloted ship bonuses only at tier 2, which means my character who has specialized into boosting the performance of every ship in their fleet now has a single piloted ship bonus. Industry is a similar situation, boosting cargo, salvaging, individual ship performance, logistics, d-mod ships and colonies.

With the new system I have may have “specialized” into a field, but I don’t feel specialized, due to the bonuses outside of what I want that I’ve had to pick on the way.

In the old system, I may not have specialized into the fields, but I specialized into a build.
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TaLaR

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Re: 0.95- First Impressions
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2021, 05:38:40 AM »

For me, what really annoys me with the skill system is how 2 skills that a player is going to want are right next to each other and mutually exclusive, like sensors and navigation on tech.

I find Coordinated Maneuvers vs Wolfpack tactics the most annoying: pick between frigates being useful to deploy OR able to stay deployed for significant time, BUT not both...
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: 0.95- First Impressions
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2021, 08:42:17 AM »

I think the loop around system doesn't work anywhere near as well when you have such a low max level to begin with, I wouldn't mind the 'take two skills in one tier to unlock the next, although I feel like it removes a lot of the 'make your choice' aspect.

I personally really like that you make choices instead of just grind every skill. I think it's good this way, and people who want everything can mod the level cap like they did in the last release. If you can have everything, then your choices matter a lot less. I do feel like the high level skills aren't very much better than the low level skills, and I wish the top tier skills were more impactful (since they are so much of a commitment to get to).

Also, the elite aspect of skills feel really underwhelming. I would prefer a numerical boost to what the skill already does, rather than the tacked on additional benefit that usually feels kinda tangential and unnecessary.
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Golde

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Re: 0.95- First Impressions
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2021, 09:07:24 AM »

Maybe a solution for the skills would be to unlock the second skill after the player picked both in the previous tier? That way you can either rush to the last skill, or slowly build up within a tree. Mechanically it would be similar to the loop-around, except you can start double stacking from the start.

I like this approach, but it would be better to allow allocation of any skill of a given field once after the level 5 in that field is reached, instead of the current loop-around twice (and linearly both times) mechanic. So you sort of still keep the incentive to complete a specific field, and still somewhat prevent early game snowballing (if it intends to serves that purpose).

As it currently stands, skills at each tier are mutually exclusive and are not direct successors of the previous tier, it makes no sense to require BOTH skills of a previous tier to unlock the second in the next.

If there is any reason at all to gate the acquisition of specific skill combinations, inadvertently creating an artificial skillpoint dump is certainly not the right solution when 15 total skillpoints are already stretched pretty thin across the tree as is.

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Serenitis

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Re: 0.95- First Impressions
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2021, 09:12:19 AM »

I like this approach, but it would be better to allow allocation of any skill of a given field once after the level 5 in that field is reached, instead of the current loop-around twice (and linearly both times) mechanic.
This seems a nicer way to do it.
There are some real duds in the skills (which will be different for everyone) that are essentially barriers to get past with a 'skill tax'.
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Kalakanjakas

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Re: 0.95- First Impressions
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2021, 09:51:35 AM »

I fully agree with both Golde and Serenitis on the free allocation after achieving level 5 in that specific color.
But I also would like to see different free bonus skills after completing a skill set or after achieving 3 different colored level 5 skills. This should minimize the feeling of 'missing out' or of the 'skill tax' (i like this term).
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xenoargh

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Re: 0.95- First Impressions
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2021, 10:21:36 AM »

Quote
Maybe a solution for the skills would be to unlock the second skill after the player picked both in the previous tier? That way you can either rush to the last skill, or slowly build up within a tree. Mechanically it would be similar to the loop-around, except you can start double stacking from the start.
That'd offer some way to (eventually) get the skills where the choice feels pretty annoying.  Raise level cap to 30, call it a day?

Anyhow, I'm really sorry if I just sound like a grumpy old man on this.  Most of the other new things feel great; there may be rough spots here and there, but it's mainly a matter of risk-vs-reward, like the missions. 

I feel partially at fault here; I've largely quit trying to offer much detailed feedback lately, and a lot of the issues I see with the skills were going to be present due to the design; I largely ignored that discussion at the time.  Things like Story Points are a really great mechanic; I like having a "role-playing currency" that can be spent on various things.  Anyhow, I'll test more thoroughly later this week, when Rebal's code is ported forward.

Spoiler
For the five people or so who might be interested in playing Rebal again, thus far, it looks like it's pretty much good to go, code was ported to Java 8, all the multithreaded goodness Just Works... and there's a bunch of new content I've put in (the Sindrians and Perseans have distinct tech, among other things) but I need to knock down XP gain and a few other things need testing.  There's a really huge improvement in my balance system for weapons I've been sitting on; I ported all the macro logic out to Javascript and now it's entirely readable by normal people (at least for anybody with a smattering of coding knowledge), and it appears to handle most general-purpose problems well now.
[close]
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Xeno's Mod Pack

IonDragonX

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Re: 0.95- First Impressions
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2021, 10:32:35 AM »

I fully agree with both Golde and Serenitis on the free allocation after achieving level 5 in that specific color.
I mostly agree with the free allocation.
I'd like to add something to it, though:
  • Tier 5 should be a choice of 2 strong skills. (Capstones!) And they shouldn't have Elite upgrades, its implied.
  • Only one of the 2 Tier 5s should be allowed in a category. Making a maximum of 9 skills each.
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SCC

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Re: 0.95- First Impressions
« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2021, 10:52:42 AM »

Elite upgrades are for flagship skills, which rely on the player skill to make the best of them. Other skills have the same effect for all players.

Serenitis

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Re: 0.95- First Impressions
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2021, 10:57:09 AM »

Some things I've noticed.

Salvage feels a little more generous, which is nice.
But the game herding you into small fleet play means it sets you up for something that made me legit lol.
Ruins now seem to have a p. decent chance to have quite large amounts of things in them, which since you have a small fleet you can barely take advantage of, if at all.
I've visited approx a dozen ruins so far, and 3 of them have had stacks of 5k+ resources in them.

Sort of adjacent to this, is core markets.
Thier excess and shortfall numbers are much higher - like multiple thousands instead of hundreds.
Traders are going to like this.
I can see funnelling supplies to the Chalcedon BM being a lot more profitable now (like it wasn't a money fountain already).

The range at which 'hostile' fleets can prevent you from salvaging/surveying seems to have been increased greatly, which is super annoying. Especially when said fleets can't threaten you in any way, but they can buzz around with complete impunity and stop you from doing what you've travelled somewhere to do.
Yellow beacon systems (tier 1) are dens of constant irritation now.

Ships in battle which run out of PPT seem to count down thier CR much faster than previously.
At least I think they do.
I'm not entirely sure if I've imagined this or not, but ships feel like they're complaining about critical malfunctions a lot sooner than I was expecting.

Story points on the whole are a really good addition, just because they allow you to get out of things that would have previously been a reload.
I've found that I'm reloading much less (but still not zero because I'm mediocre at combat and have zero sense).
And the whole building things into ships is a neat way to sidestep around the 'always take' OP skill being removed.

While bumbling around I found a *static* off by itself in *static*, which is super weird.
Upon investigating it had a *static* which seems it was part of a *static* which had a fairly decent *static*.
There was also a lonely *static* with an odd *static* on it. And even weirder was the *static* seemingly guarding it.
Got out of there fairly sharpish. *static* fighting something like that in this tub of *static*.

[e]
This is the kind of idiot I am.
I've just clicked through a salvage dialog completely forgetting story points exist... And mulched an Aurora.
My last save was more than 30 mins ago.

vae fatuus
« Last Edit: March 27, 2021, 11:03:04 AM by Serenitis »
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Thaago

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Re: 0.95- First Impressions
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2021, 10:58:58 AM »

Re: Skills: I think its important to remember that respeccing uses an infinite and (so far for me at least) plentiful resource in story points. If its worth spending a story point (or 2) on hullmods for a given ship, its worth spending a respec point to select the correct skills for it. This is particularly applicable for combat skills, but it applies for things like colony skills as well if the player finds that they would give a big boost when they reach that stage of the game. 15 skills may be restrictive, but its supposed to be, and we can change up our builds at a moment's notice.

The permanent skills locking in those trees is not great and contradicts what I was saying above: I would vote for a more elegant solution that gives full respeccing.

Looking at the combat tree/skills in particular, there are some extremely powerful options in there. I would happily loop around for both the second and 3rd branches for a combat focused character (not saying this is optimal, just that I can see doing it). The first one being a dead skill (fighters) hurts quite a bit, but its worth it IMO for being able to stack those 2cd and 3rd branches. I'm surprised and a little skeptical at folks calling the level 5's bad: the missile skill is massive for any ship that's using missiles extensively, especially with Elite (I haven't tested it yet: I need to see if the ROF increase applies to just when firing missile bursts, or also to missile cooldowns, but I'm guessing both). The system skill is crazy good too on the right ship: imagine a Doom with an extra mine, that produces mines 50% faster, and can launch them 50% further (probably the most extreme example).

For the Elite skills: Story points are a cheap resource, much cheaper than skills, but one that doesn't want to be wasted, so these are almost automatic buys on any skill that you don't think you will retrain. Since I don't fly carriers (or at least won't this playthrough), the navigation elite is an autopick that makes the 0 flux boost into the 0 generation boost. It is a bit annoying that these points are completely lost if the player respecs out of them: I would want a special case where if you just swapped the skill for its counterpart, rather than losing the skill level entirely, it was kept. This is particularly impactful for technology 2, because both those elite skills are insanely good, but depending on ballistic or energy based ships.
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Grievous69

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Re: 0.95- First Impressions
« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2021, 11:20:12 AM »

Man, story point gain reaaally slows down after level 10. Don't waste your points on random things early like I did, you're gonna need them later trust me guys.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: 0.95- First Impressions
« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2021, 11:41:17 AM »

I think free hullmods are generally quite a bit better than the average elite skill. And if you take special modifications that gives +1 free hullmod, you will have a huge story point sink. It's hard for me to imagine grabbing those elite skills unless I didn't go for special modifications. The only elite skill I've grabbed so far is -10% flux generation of energy weapons.

Also, special modifications is kinda stupid strong. The obvious +1 free hullmod is very good, but +10 (flat) vents/caps is actually extremely good as well. It's +100% vents/caps on frigates, +50% on destroyers, +33% on cruisers and +20% on capitals, compared to old loadout design which gave 20% on all classes. A tempest with built in SO and 20 vents has over 900 dissipation (lol), and you can still fit two more free hullmods. I'm kinda tempted to do a run with wolfpack tactics and a bunch of officered SO tempests lol, I think it would be busted.
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Sordid

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Re: 0.95- First Impressions
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2021, 12:41:13 PM »

My first impression is that nothing's been done to correct the game's most glaring flaws.

The player is still underpowered and therefore has to rely on allied AI, which is a problem because allied AI is still braindead and happily suicides high-value ships into the enemy deathball. For some unfathomable reason you can also still only give a limited number of commands to your ships; limiting the player's ability to at least marginally affect the Brownian motion of his/her ships is exactly the wrong thing to do with respect to the aforementioned AI issue. The enemy AI, meanwhile, kites you like an absolute cowardly bastard, because nothing is more fun than being kited by AI. The skill tree is still saturated with boring "+10% to whatever" choices; some even have conditions now that make them lose effectiveness as your fleet grows, because nothing is more exciting than getting a skill that has planned obsolescence built in. The map movement is still incredibly rubberbandy and frustratingly unresponsive, with a whole bunch of movement abilities that serve no purpose other than to annoy you. Hyperspace is still filled with clouds and storms, because navigating between those with the aforementioned controls feels just oh so good. I could go on for a very long time like this.

I don't know what improvements and/or additions may have been made in other areas, and I'll probably never find out, because I have no more patience for this. I reached level 10 with a bunch of cruisers in my fleet, and I'm done. I was hoping this update would mean I could start recommending Starfarer to people again instead of warning them against it, but sadly not. Two years of waiting for... this. I should've spent the money on a burger instead.
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