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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); In-development patch notes for Starsector 0.98a (2/8/25)

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Author Topic: Make our actions/effort matter  (Read 6771 times)

NoMercyForLudds_

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Make our actions/effort matter
« on: March 22, 2021, 05:16:37 PM »

First of, apologies if this has been suggested many times over - the forum is too big to thoroughly search through (and simple text search doesn't cut it).

Starsector is a rough diamond, which is already great, but I feel there is still one - but crucial - element missing from it: our in-game actions don't really matter, which makes it somewhat boring to stay engaged beyond early game.

So, @Alex, please, make our actions matter. (The rest is superficial stuff: rebalancing ships, adding graphical effects, adding colony buildings etc.)

Two obvious culprits here: a) absence of a greater purpose and b) respawn. These two are closely related. Nexelerin kind of, sort of, partially, in an awkward way helps with, but doesn't fully solve, issue A. So the greater purpose could be help our faction win, e.g., by having 51% of sector GDP, or 51% of all habitable planets, or being first to unlocking some super tech, or something similar. (I personally prefer GDP.)

If Starsector is about creating our own story, this all would fit right in: we can help our faction by fighting alongside their official military in conquests, or by raiding rival factions to limit their resources, or exploring outer reaches for new tech/blueprints that helps our faction (if we choose to give it to our faction instead of beelining for the black market), or by finding great planets for our faction to colonize, or maybe something else.

This brings me to issue B. I absolutely loathe simplistic respawn - and I think most of the readers of this post do too. Spending time and effort winning a tough battle only to see AI respawning another stack makes me wonder what was the point of my effort. Please make respawn more intelligent, e.g., by introducing the notion of GDP - the resources that a faction can dedicate to 1.1) building up a military to attack or 1.2) defend, 2) investing in their economy to get more resources next month, 3) sending out exploration parties to the outer reaches, 4) setting up raiding parties, 5) bribing pirates, 6) developing new ships/weapons, 7) colonizing new worlds, 8) something else.

If we defeat a large enemy fleet, it's a huge loss for them and they need to recover. If we find a useful blueprint, it helps our faction military in the future. If we find and report a sweet planet to our faction, it boosts the economy in the long run. This would make our actions matter, and make us feel a useful part of a larger effort.

As a final point, Nexelerin's idea of diplomacy is great. If our faction gets stronger, others should be prone to team up on us, otherwise it snowballs and leads to victory too quickly.

That's all. @Alex, thanks for the game.

P.S. please implement an option for me to limit the number of hours I play a day - so I can set it in the beginning, while I still have the willpower to not skip sleep...

EDIT: I'd emphasize "make us feel a useful part of a larger effort" and add "a tiny useful part of a gigantic effort/struggle". Because currently we really aren't: 1) stomping out pirates doesn't matter - they respawn right away and their activity affects the sector only mildly (nothing ever descends into complete chaos); 2) stomping out Ludds makes even less sense - for the same reason as Pirates, but also because they aren't well fitted in the game/lore besides being Pirates--; 3) exploring outer reaches doesn't matter - other factions don't care about planet surveys I sell to them, it's just an item to sell, and blueprints don't do anything meaningful besides adding one more way to get a ship in mid/late game; 4) raiding trade convoys doesn't really matter - they contain little loot that barely covers the costs of fighting and these fights are boring beyond early game, plus factions don't really suffer from loosing these convoys; 5) shuttling goods to struggling worlds with a deficit doesn't matter beyond making a bit of cash - and gets boring quickly; 6) Clearing out Remnant from a system doesn't matter - nobody will colonize those worlds anyways, and AI cores are only good for slightly improving your reputation with a faction or selling them and seeing them sit in that market forever unused; 8) And don't get me started on the procedural missions - shuttling goods is just about watching space travel sequences (graphics are absolutely gorgeous, but it does get boring) and makes no in-game impact, and hunting down somebody/bases is just another way to shepherd us into a space battle, the outcome of which again makes little in-game impact. 9) Conquering a world/planet does make an impact, but it's the only way to make an impact, and it gets boring; I become a wrecking ball in mid game and just run around conquering worlds. I'd prefer to be a tiny part of the Sector for much longer, and affect it in other ways than repetitive, mechanistic conquest, and only become a wrecking ball at the very end if ever.

For the game to not be boring beyond early game, the Sector needs to be dynamic and we have to - I'd even say, must - see how it changes based on our actions.

Addressing some of the arguments: If Starsector is about space battles, it was finished long ago and Campaign isn't needed. Just selected ours/opposition ships and keep blasting. If Starsector is an interactive story-telling device, it'll be done with version 1.0 - I'll blitz through story points/missions, admire a possible final cut-scene and delete. But then why have Colonies, Factions, Reputation? It's weird to have these classical 4X elements, while desperately trying to not be a 4X game.

Btw, Colonies are my least favorite part of the game. They are a nuisance, especially stomping out incessant pirate raids and Ludd infiltrations (both of which respawn right away), and defending against AI inspections. If I play again, I'll have no colonies.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2021, 07:55:24 AM by NoMercyForLudds_ »
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Helldiver

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Re: Make our actions/effort matter
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2021, 06:23:32 PM »

Nexerelin definitely adds that with its dynamic faction relations, the ability for factions to declare wars, invade worlds, form alliances, wipe out other factions and so on. These various aspects add an actual long-lasting campaign goal and single-handedly give value to most elements in the game without which they have no purpose. For this reason I don't consider Starsector without Nex to be much of a game - all you do is mash braindead AI fleets with no objective.

But when you ask about dynamic factions and faction wars Alex answers that it's "too 4X" or "outside the scope of the game" (despite unpaid modders having achieved it) so who knows if we'll ever see that included in the base game.

If we find and report a sweet planet

Would definitely love planet data to have value beyond $, with how important planets with good resources or habitability are supposed to be. It would make investing into surveying (not just doing survey missions) more than a finite source of cash.
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Kakroom

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Re: Make our actions/effort matter
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2021, 08:07:37 PM »

As Helldiver, while I agree, much of what you have listed (well, some) has been either modded in or confronted and rejected. Starsector is first and foremost a fleet combat game. It's (designed to be) about big booms and the ships and the builds.

It's kind of sad because you can always see the RPG4x poking its head out. But luckily Alex is gaming Jesus and actively helps modders (and even nonmodders) mod his game, so there's always room for a community to dig it out. As is the work of Saint Superior Histidine, may his chalice and coffers forever overflow
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Make our actions/effort matter
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2021, 09:30:54 PM »

I think there's a lot of space between a 4x game and 'the only way to interact with factions meaningfully is to nuke them out of existence'. To be honest, I expect some of that will come as part of a narrative that hasn't been added in yet, but I would also like to see more purpose added into the game.
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shoi

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Re: Make our actions/effort matter
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2021, 10:19:02 PM »

I think when I was looking through code, there was a bit about how destroying or damaging fleets launched by a market weakens future ones from the same market (although i'm not 100% sure if this was not just a fever dream or something)

I think a lot of this stuff is more Nex-adjacent than vanilla, but I do agree that, for instance, blowing up an Onslaught should have a big effect on the faction as a whole. It would be neat to see, but imo there would have to be other aspects of the game addressed for it to work well, such as the infinite money printers that are colonies. Right now i'd say that factions having infinite resources is needed with how rapidly the player can scale out of control.
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Serenitis

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Re: Make our actions/effort matter
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2021, 01:51:09 AM »

I think there's a lot of space between a 4x game and 'the only way to interact with factions meaningfully is to nuke them out of existence'.
Absolutely this.
I don't really mind faction interaction and changing conditions. To a point.
But I really don't want 4x stuff like blobbling empires and map nonsense in the game, there's already a ton of that stuff proliferating around and the reason I got into starsector was because it wasn't that.
I don't use Nex exactly for that reason - I already have a ton of 4x stuff. Starsector is different, and I like that.

Some folk say the game is mindless because it doesn't have explicitly defined goals.
To those people, might I suggest setting your own goals?
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Helldiver

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Re: Make our actions/effort matter
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2021, 03:28:04 AM »

Starsector is first and foremost a fleet combat game. It's (designed to be) about big booms and the ships and the builds.

If so, would its combat mechanics be as shallow as they are? The fleet combat almost feels like an aftertought or a minigame.

But I really don't want 4x stuff like blobbling empires and map nonsense in the game


You don't have to take direct part into the 4x stuff if you don't want to, and I don't see how it could detract from someone's experience. It makes the game world dynamic which generates far more varied scenarios even for someone who want to enjoy the more basic parts of the game and creates replayability.
I had a playthrough in Nex where all I did was fight for the Hegemony as a commissioned fleet and didn't even build a single colony - all I cared about was perfecting my fleet and officer roster and crushing and invading all in the name of the eagle. And a dynamic world created the opportunities to make this interesting by creating new and surprising experiences - such as attempting to take Sindria from the Persean League who had captured it in a Persean League/Luddic Church alliance push into Askonia and facing multiple named combined PL/LC task forces standing at the jump point due to the incoming invasion.

Some folk say the game is mindless because it doesn't have explicitly defined goals.
To those people, might I suggest setting your own goals?

Nex doesn't have explicitely defined goals either though. It makes the world dynamic which allows you to set your own at every level. I can't set goals in vanilla in the first place with how static the game world is there and how few options and interactions there are betweens its actors. You do the Red Planet mission and outside of that it's just killing infinite idiot AI with no result. Making tons of colonies or bombing other factions' doesn't lead to anything because nothing interacts. Right now the vanilla game is neither a sandbox, nor a story-driven game, nor a combat-focused game (mobile-game level combat mechanics) - it's like a framework for an actual game. Nex completes that framework in one way (sandbox).
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Dread Pirate Robots

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Re: Make our actions/effort matter
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2021, 07:40:44 AM »

Lets see what the game's website has to say about this...


Quote
Current Features

Pilot your ship in top-down 2D combat
Command your fleet in tactical battles
Gain experience to level up your skills
Detailed space combat mechanics
Customize your ship’s loadout before battle
Hire officers to give skill bonuses, pilot auxiliary ships, and oversee your operations
Explore war-torn star systems
Exploit events to trade goods for profit
Win the favor or scorn of powerful factions
Discover new worlds and salvage lost derelicts
Mod support for diverse user-made content
Claim new worlds, build outposts and industry

Upcoming Features

Determine the fate of the Sector by your actions
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Grievous69

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Re: Make our actions/effort matter
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2021, 07:51:36 AM »

The fleet combat almost feels like an aftertought or a minigame.

Right now the vanilla game is neither a sandbox, nor a story-driven game, nor a combat-focused game (mobile-game level combat mechanics) - it's like a framework for an actual game. Nex completes that framework in one way (sandbox).
What? Just what? Mobile game combat mechanics in Starsector? Combat is a minigame... My man, the whole game revolves around combat, the game started simply as a pure combat game with some battle scenarios. Eventually you were able to customize ships and then, and just then the campaign part started being the "real game" after it slowly got updated with mechanics.

I know there's a ton of Nex fanboys around but be realistic, Nex doesn't "complete" the game, it turns it into a 4x. Which is fine for people who like that sort of games but my question is why even play a game where the main focus is on combat and piloting your own ship if you only care for diplomacy and faction expansion. Thank god Alex doesn't listen to those wanting Nex to be integrated into the base game, as it would ruin the core game and the reason why I play it. There's plenty of 4x games on the market, but not a lot of games like Starsector.
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Helldiver

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Re: Make our actions/effort matter
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2021, 08:10:58 AM »

The fleet combat almost feels like an aftertought or a minigame.

Right now the vanilla game is neither a sandbox, nor a story-driven game, nor a combat-focused game (mobile-game level combat mechanics) - it's like a framework for an actual game. Nex completes that framework in one way (sandbox).
What? Just what? Mobile game combat mechanics in Starsector? Combat is a minigame... My man, the whole game revolves around combat, the game started simply as a pure combat game with some battle scenarios. Eventually you were able to customize ships and then, and just then the campaign part started being the "real game" after it slowly got updated with mechanics.

I know there's a ton of Nex fanboys around but be realistic, Nex doesn't "complete" the game, it turns it into a 4x. Which is fine for people who like that sort of games but my question is why even play a game where the main focus is on combat and piloting your own ship if you only care for diplomacy and faction expansion. Thank god Alex doesn't listen to those wanting Nex to be integrated into the base game, as it would ruin the core game and the reason why I play it. There's plenty of 4x games on the market, but not a lot of games like Starsector.

I did not write that combat is a minigame, but that it feels like one. That's my opinion based on how shallow I find the combat mechanics.

I only wrote that Nex completes the game in one way - as a sandbox. The game could be completed in other ways and directions, for example as a combat game -and I would love it- but I don't see it currently standing as a combat-focused game due to the aforementioned shallowness of its combat mechanics. The old Battlestations: Pacific game from 12 years ago is what I consider an example of an arcadey combat-focused game where you control your own warship and a single small fleet. It is a very casual game from way back and yet its mechanics and battle action feel put Starsector's to shame.

I also don't see how "4x" (just a more dynamic sector really - even Nex isn't 4x) can ruin the game for you. As shown in my example, all it does for someone who enjoys only combat is create more varied situations for them with an evolving world.
And where did I write I only care about diplomacy and faction expansion? That's opposite of my example.

You seem to think that I'm here arguing for Starsector to turn into Eve Online or something. I like fleet combat, that's why I play games like these. But I want combat situations to be varied and, to tie it all back to the OP's point: for my actions to matter as part of the game's world.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2021, 08:46:31 AM by Helldiver »
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Grievous69

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Re: Make our actions/effort matter
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2021, 08:15:26 AM »

But I don't want an evolving world. I like to have my own pace and do thingy how I want (you know, like a true sandbox), and not be pressured to immediately colonize worlds before AI does. Or have to engage in faction diplomacy unless I want to be slapped by everyone. If everything was so simple and it would merely just add variations, Alex would've implemented it long ago, but unfortunately there's more to it.
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NoMercyForLudds_

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Re: Make our actions/effort matter
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2021, 08:34:27 AM »

Nexerelin definitely adds that with its dynamic faction relations

Nexerelin is wonderful, but it has limitations, serious limitations - because a mod can't solve everything. 1) The UI is painful. Clicking through text menu options, adjusting tiny sliders for fleet strengths, trying to match faction planet lists with planet location on the map, ensuring that the planet in a list is the one to send a fleet to, etc. 2) No automation: I was sick and tired of manually clicking through all the text options to send a fleet instead of a part of my faction resources being dedicated to defence. 3) Diplomacy is a great idea, but involves a lot of eventually-painful text option clicking, and makes little impact because of the next point. 4) Little changes in the sector as the result of other faction actions. Only occasionally a planet is captured or settled. AI sends a doomstack to conquer a planet and then sits around it. And nothing happens.

To further show Nex limitations, I'll describe the second half of my last playthrough. A) I'm bored out of my mind of being a wrecking-ball of a fleet that everything runs away from. B) I try to end the playthrough by getting to see the promised end screen. C) I try diplomacy and keep on using all 3 available agents to improve the relations with the largest not-in-my-alliance faction, and eventually succeed after a ridiculous amount of repetitive "improve relations" agent action. D) I try to send a conquest fleet to every not-in-my-alliance planet. E) For some reason, 80% of these fleets fail, even though I put their strength well above defender strength. F) I manually move my wrecking-ball of a fleet to every non-conquered planet to mechanistically repeat the following: 1) switch my transponder off right before reaching a planet, so the never-ending tiny patrols don't bother me with clicking through 4 dialog screens of "identify yourself"; 2) Buy up all marines on the planet; 3) Speed up through the old-same battlestation demolition; 4) Click through dialog screens of conquest; 5) Grant the planet autonomy; 6) Repeat.

To end, let me repeat - Nex is great and I wouldn't play again without it, but it can't/doesn't solve everything.
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SCC

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Re: Make our actions/effort matter
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2021, 08:40:19 AM »

(mobile-game level combat mechanics)
What amazing mobile games are you playing? I need to know.

NoMercyForLudds_

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Re: Make our actions/effort matter
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2021, 08:50:17 AM »

But I don't want an evolving world. I like to have my own pace and do thingy how I want (you know, like a true sandbox)

I'd completely disagree with the 1st point because a) it can't possibly detract from doing your thingy, and b) it makes doing your thingy more fun.

I'd also say that I/others probably agree with your 2nd point much more than your reply suggests. "Doing my thingy" is exactly what I want. But I want it in a giant world and I want my thingy to visibly matter. To give an example, my favorite part is exploration. But currently it's not rewarding enough: 1) other factions don't give a damn about my planet surveys, 2) occasionally found blueprints are only useful to pump out ships in late game, and other factions again don't care about them, 3) interesting finds (like a mothership or smth similar) are so rare, they are like easter eggs, and they don't contain much in them besides generic loot, 4) great planets to settle are useless to the AI factions, and more of a nuisance to defend for me. In the end, exploration ends up being wasted fuel and long space-travel sequences - I like cooking during the travel..
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Helldiver

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Re: Make our actions/effort matter
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2021, 08:54:41 AM »

(mobile-game level combat mechanics)
What amazing mobile games are you playing? I need to know.

World of Warships Blitz is a multiplayer example - and not an amazing one either. I don't play it anymore because I heavily dislike the company that makes the game, but even that simple mobile game has combat mechanics on par with SS, trading flux management for many other features.
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