Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic: Make Missile Autoforge Great Again  (Read 3797 times)

Embolism

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 492
    • View Profile
Make Missile Autoforge Great Again
« on: March 12, 2021, 06:10:03 PM »

The Missile Autoforge is not a ship system. it's a passive bonus with a button attached to it.

For people who are not aware, Missile Autoforge is one use only. Why does it need to be a ship system? It might as well be a built-in hullmod that doubles your ammo capacity, it would functionally be almost the same.

Retreating from battle and pressing F once when you're out of missiles is not an interesting combat decision, especially since you'd retreat anyway when out of missiles even if you didn't have Missile Autoforge.

Therefore I don't think the current iteration of Missile Autoforge should continue to exist. The boring solution would be to turn it into a built-in hullmod that increases missile ammo by 4x (replacing and incompatible Expanded Missile Racks), and give the Gryphon Fast Missile Racks. If Missile Autoforge is to be kept however then it must be more than one use only. Balance it with a cooldown, or only regenerate a portion of missile ammo at a time, or whatever.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2021, 08:11:29 PM by Embolism »
Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 10924
    • View Profile
Re: Make Missile Autoforge Great Again
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2021, 05:22:07 AM »

For some real silly fun, restore it to the original self-destructive -15% CR per use.  (I do not trust AI to manage that one.)  For something really unbalanced, give it the forge hullmod boss ships like the Guardian have for unlimited missiles.

Current version annoys me too, and I agree it should be a built-in improved Missile Racks with quad ammo instead of double.

Also, the other combat missile ship, the Vigilance frigate, has Fast Missile Racks.  Despite being a civilian, Venture leans heavily into missiles too.  If Gryphon gets a quad missile mod, maybe Vigilance and Venture can have it too.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2021, 05:25:05 AM by Megas »
Logged

Thaago

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 6660
  • Harpoon Affectionado
    • View Profile
Re: Make Missile Autoforge Great Again
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2021, 10:00:18 AM »

Vigilance/Venture with 4x missiles would be interesting... currently a Vigilance with Salamander Pods can lay down pretty decent distraction fire because FMR ignores its cooldown. Having 4x ammo built in would give it 48 harpoons, which is a lot for a frigate. I suppose they would only come 4 at a time and the ship doesn't really have any more offense? I would definitely try to spam Vigilances with that many Harpoons and see how it goes.
Logged

DatonKallandor

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
    • View Profile
Re: Make Missile Autoforge Great Again
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2021, 10:51:31 AM »

Both extra missile ammo and fast missile racks have extremely unbalance and unituitive effects because missile refire rates are essentually instant for almost all missiles. So extra ammo turns into extra burst damage, which is obviously incredibly hard to balance because it just lets you delete ships. And FMR is basically useless for almost all missiles because they fire near-instantly after each other anyway.
Logged

Thaago

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 6660
  • Harpoon Affectionado
    • View Profile
Re: Make Missile Autoforge Great Again
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2021, 11:21:51 AM »

Thats not really true. Medium missile mounts other than annihilators have long refire times. Large missiles sometimes have extremely long refire times, though I don't think any ship has FMR and large missiles.
Logged

Goumindong

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1665
    • View Profile
Re: Make Missile Autoforge Great Again
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2021, 12:42:04 PM »

I kind of agree that this is an issue but i don't think your solution is that great. Just doubling the number of missiles isn't all that interesting or unique.

As such:

Missile Auto-forge: The ship may replenish missiles between engagements and so will replenish up to 75% of missiles fired in the prior engagement. Additionally a ship with an auto-forge requires less 25% supplies to deploy due to it being able to more efficiently produce munitions from supplies. Because missiles may be easily renovated using the forge adding or removing missile systems in space has a significantly lower impact on overall ship readiness as compared to normal.

I.E. i would make it a strategic, rather than tactical, system. This lets the griffin be quite unique in how it can be utilized on the battlefield, being able to achieve multiple engagements and being able to refit to attack specific enemies and exploit specific weaknesses as necessary.

While this would reduce the overall power of the Griffin in each individual fight it would make it a lot more tenable to utilize strategically. The Griffin could be then given a different ship system like Maneuvering Jets or Decoy Flare's
Logged

Goumindong

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1665
    • View Profile
Re: Make Missile Autoforge Great Again
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2021, 12:52:51 PM »

Vigilance/Venture with 4x missiles would be interesting... currently a Vigilance with Salamander Pods can lay down pretty decent distraction fire because FMR ignores its cooldown. Having 4x ammo built in would give it 48 harpoons, which is a lot for a frigate. I suppose they would only come 4 at a time and the ship doesn't really have any more offense? I would definitely try to spam Vigilances with that many Harpoons and see how it goes.

Harpoon Vigilance is good as it is. (one issue is that the Buffalo Mk II provides more missiles and the condor more overall oomph though both have other weaknesses). Harpoon, Graviton Beam, EMR, Advanced Optics, ITU, 4 Caps is... just absolute cancer for 5 OP. (Or ECCM in exchange for ITU and some caps). Its main weakness is that its going to overkill a lot of ships due to how it stacks with itself. If you drop 5 into a fleet you're going to get 40 harpoons dumped onto the first thing that drops its shields

2nd edit: I also like it with an Ion Beam. But its a bit harder to get everything to fit. The ion beam makes it far more painful to enemies once their shields go down.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2021, 01:05:32 PM by Goumindong »
Logged

ubuntufreakdragon

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 184
    • View Profile
Re: Make Missile Autoforge Great Again
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2021, 01:10:59 PM »

Or let it consume a wreck(s) to gain a new charge.
Logged

Thaago

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 6660
  • Harpoon Affectionado
    • View Profile
Re: Make Missile Autoforge Great Again
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2021, 02:04:17 PM »

Ion + Salamander Vigilance is something I've played with and what I use when playing The Last Hurrah. Its not amazing, but its pretty survivable and reliable EMP support that makes ships easy targets for others.
Logged

Embolism

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 492
    • View Profile
Re: Make Missile Autoforge Great Again
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2021, 01:46:30 AM »

I kind of agree that this is an issue but i don't think your solution is that great. Just doubling the number of missiles isn't all that interesting or unique.

The first suggestion is just streamlining what the Gryphon is currently without making a new system. My preference would be for solution 2... regenerate one ammo to all missile mounts on activation with say a 15 second cooldown between activations.

I think Vigiliance can do with having ECCM built-in but otherwise is probably okay pending its minor buffs in 0.95. Venture is supposed to be a civilian cruiser so I don't think built-in military hullmods make sense, though I'd like to see it get two mining pod wings and maybe get Salvage Gantry built-in to make it a bigger Shepherd.
Logged

Serenitis

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1370
    • View Profile
Re: Make Missile Autoforge Great Again
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2021, 02:16:31 AM »

Venture is supposed to be a civilian cruiser so I don't think built-in military hullmods make sense, though I'd like to see it get two mining pod wings and maybe get Salvage Gantry built-in to make it a bigger Shepherd.
Alternative: Remove the fighter bay entirely, and replace it with a built-in converted hangar mod.
Logged

Embolism

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 492
    • View Profile
Re: Make Missile Autoforge Great Again
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2021, 08:10:17 PM »

Edited my first post to remove any suggestions on my part that might get nitpicked on so we can focus on how silly the Missile Autoforge is in its current iteration. I do think it needs fixing for the sake of polish.
Logged

Retry

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 420
    • View Profile
Re: Make Missile Autoforge Great Again
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2021, 08:39:07 PM »

With the new skill system, Missile Autoforge can now be a two-use system
Logged

Miggis

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 8
    • View Profile
Re: Make Missile Autoforge Great Again
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2021, 12:15:36 AM »

With the new skill system, Missile Autoforge can now be a two-use system

Right now it competes with Missile Specialization though, which is imo slightly better for an all-in missile build.
Missile specialization + Expanded Missile Racks + Autoforge = 6x ammo. 3x ammo on follow up battles. Also increased missile hp (and increased rof if elited).
Systems Expertise can also give 6x ammo on first battle. 4x on follow up but you'd lose out on hp buff.
Logged

KDR_11k

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 582
    • View Profile
Re: Make Missile Autoforge Great Again
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2021, 02:01:50 AM »

One difference between autoforge and just more ammo is that you can't reload the launchers as they empty, you gotta wait until all of your missile types have been used or waste some of the ammo gain.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2