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[Megas]

We know none of the new ships will be able to mount large ballistics, except Rampart and Brilliant. I'm fairly certain the current Storm Needler won't be used on either of those.

And those cannot be piloted by the player, only by trigger-happy AI that cannot help themselves from maxing their flux bar.  Of course, player needs to get that tier 5 Automated Ships skill to use them in the first place.

[FooF]

Since the idea I presented in the patch notes thread is practically identical to the OP's first idea, I generally lean toward a burst-y weapon that has a strong alpha but a lot of downtime. Spiking kinetic damage is generally preferred over slow/steady and if the Storm Needler was the "King" of this, it would make sense considering the other Needler types. 800 range is probably the extent of it, though.

I just think the "press and hold" feature of the weapon is antithetical to both the Needler MO. It also forces the weapon into low range because it's the Assault Chaingun of Kinetics. That's why stat adjustments don't really work for me. It just needs a slight redesign that is a bit more efficient with a bit more range.

If you do turn it into a shotgun, just don't call it a "Needler."

[Goumindong]

If Onslaught cannot sustain Storm Needlers for the full DPS, then what is the point of using them instead of Mark IXs (or smaller kinetics) that it can sustain for less OP and better range?  Low-tech ships have more mounts than their dissipation can support.

Because when shooting into shields with kinetic weapons the ability to sustain firing does not matter as compared to the ability to put DPS out. We showed this in one of the threads discussing optimal vent/capacitor allocation and found that the actual optimal fit for situations where you're shooting kinetic damage into shields is that you max capacitors before vents.

Plus the storm needler is more efficient so when it is capped it can shoot less and end up doing more DPS.

The storm needler does 26.7 DPS/OP at .86 flux/damage. The Mark IX is 19.3 DPS/OP  at 1.15 flux/dmg. If these numbers alone do not give you a reason to fit a storm needler then i am not sure what does.

The only reason (besides range) i would not consider putting a storm needler on an Onslaught is because i want the large ballistics for HE in the form of HAG's. The Onslaught cannot sustain the HAG's either but the inability to sustain the flux use of two HAG does not matter.

I suppose that if the Storm needler does have an issue its range. Its legit hard to fix a storm needler at 700 range because you're giving up a 320 range advantage to Mark IX and 160 to a Heavy Needler.  Another problem might just be its raw OP cost. Its legit hard to fit a storm needler at 28 OP.

But even then... the main issue is that most ships that have large ballistic also have medium ballistic. And if you have both then you want kinetic in your mediums and HE in the larges simply because large weapons have better dmg/hit in general and that makes them better.

So what kind of ship would get a lot out of a storm needler?

Well a ship with a large ballistic(or universal) mount that had medium energy mounts instead(and if it had small ballistic needed them/wanted them for PD). If the Aurora, instead of its 4 small and 1 medium hybrid in the front had a large universal or ballistic the Storm Needler at 700 range Kinetic would be a strong contender for that mount. Since you're going to finish things with HB in the two medium energy behind it and since a 900 range HE doesn't do you any good without a way to puncture shields until the 600 range HB in the medium energy...

edit: This is using the old stats of the Mark IX (which uhhh. probably didn't need a buff i think the mark IX is a perfectly capable weapon). At 1.0 dmg/flux vs 1.15 this doesn't change the calculus all that much.

[Wyvern]

I haven't read through everything here, but there is one thing I'd like to point out: next patch, we'll have access to zero-cost hullmods. A Dominator with Safety Overrides built-in should be an excellent platform for a single Storm Needler.

[Goumindong]

I haven't read through everything here, but there is one thing I'd like to point out: next patch, we'll have access to zero-cost hullmods. A Dominator with Safety Overrides built-in should be an excellent platform for a single Storm Needler.

Maybe?

The real answer is that the problem will almost always be that the dominator still has medium and small ballistic and so tends to want HE in its larger slots regardless of whether or not its SO. So 2x HMG 2x AC seem better than 1x SN, 2x AC.

[Wyvern]

The real answer is that the problem will almost always be that the dominator still has medium and small ballistic and so tends to want HE in its larger slots regardless of whether or not its SO. So 2x HMG 2x AC seem better than 1x SN, 2x AC.

Those both sound like terrible setups to me. I'd put dual flak in the mediums, one storm needler, railguns in the small slots, and choice of devastator or hellbore for armor-cracking.

[Golde]

Does no one really want to just slightly normalize its performance? 800 range, 50 damage per projectile like every other needler, at 500dps and 400flux/s?

aside from its unimpressive range, the sheer fluxdraw makes it a poor choice for the few ship that has large ballistics, almost all of which are flux starved lowtechs to begin with.

Y'all are thinking too hard with these gimmick mechanics.

[Goumindong]

The real answer is that the problem will almost always be that the dominator still has medium and small ballistic and so tends to want HE in its larger slots regardless of whether or not its SO. So 2x HMG 2x AC seem better than 1x SN, 2x AC.

Those both sound like terrible setups to me. I'd put dual flak in the mediums, one storm needler, railguns in the small slots, and choice of devastator or hellbore for armor-cracking.

On an SO Dominator? Yea its hilariously amazing. 2 HMG, 2 AC, IPDAI and a bunch of vulcans. Burn at things and then go brrrr until they're dead. Why waste OP on 700 range kinetics? Devastator is OK to very good in it but like... Dual Flak? Over vulcans and IPDAI? Over Assault Chainguns!?!?!?!?!

[SafariJohn]

I never use Storm Needler. Partially because I have never found a good build that uses it, and mostly because I don't like how it looks/feels when firing - very underwhelming.

[Wyvern]

Does no one really want to just slightly normalize its performance? 800 range, 50 damage per projectile like every other needler, at 500dps and 400flux/s?

aside from its unimpressive range, the sheer fluxdraw makes it a poor choice for the few ship that has large ballistics, almost all of which are flux starved lowtechs to begin with.

Y'all are thinking too hard with these gimmick mechanics.

I'd be on board with this, especially if it also comes with a slight reduction in OP cost.

[Goumindong]

I don’t think that would help much. I think it’s mainly a slotting issue in that kinetic goes in the mediums and HE in the larges if you have both and since more or less everything that has ballistic capable larges has ballistic medium...

As I noted earlier. Imagine if the Aurora had a large forward universal or ballistic, would you put a storm Needler there? Yea probably.

[SCC]

Perhaps SN could gain some range and have variable rate of fire. It could either start at 750 and drop to 250 over time, to make it bursty, or go the other way and have it start slow and then spin to 750 DPS to be more brrrt.

[Chronosfear]

Im not using the SN, cause of 3 reasons: lowish range and low dmg (per projectile) with a high cost in flux
(i prefer the mark 9 cause it still does a little bit of support on armor and has a better range)
Yes I know SN is anti shield only  and it does it very good but I still feel to limited when using it so I avoid to use it.

Shotgun kind of could work out if we increased the range of the weapon and adjust the flux per volley.

Perhaps SN could gain some range and have variable rate of fire. It could either start at 750 and drop to 250 over time, to make it bursty, or go the other way and have it start slow and then spin to 750 DPS to be more brrrt.

I like that idea.. maybe give it some sort of limited but also fast refilling ammo so it lowers the sustain dmg and flux cost while keeping it a high burst (also remove spinup time) and a slight increase in range. So at least it would be an option for some sort of "faster" ships: move in fire and get back into cover to lower your flux

[DatonKallandor]

Clips were a really great balance lever that was removed too hastily and would really help balance out stuff like the Storm Needler.

[FooF]

Ammo being an issue for the Storm Needler would be interesting (I also suggested this in the patch notes thread). If burst fire/alpha was high but the regen rate of the ammo reduced sustained DPS to half or even 1/3 of "full auto", you could leave a lot of things as-is and still increase the range.

Not only that but the ships that have a hard time sustaining the Storm wouldn't have the burden of *trying* to keep up with the flux cost after a bit. I mean, how long does the current Storm Needler need to fire to outperform the Mk. IX? Maybe use that as a baseline?