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Author Topic: Player faction item bans  (Read 1761 times)

Kakroom

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Player faction item bans
« on: February 23, 2021, 03:05:20 PM »

So I've been thinking about the ways that the player faction could be meaningfully shaped into something that fits more your vision for how you might want to run things in sector. The Free Port option is best thing we have so far, but I feel like it could be neat if the option to determine what goods were tradable in your empire were slightly more customizable. Currently one of the most meaningful ways other empires are distinguished is by what they allow for trade; it reflects their opinions, the authorities that govern them, and so on. The Hegemony and Sindria run a tight ship and don't allow materiel like heavy weapons or AI cores to run around without their consent; the luddites live up to their title and don't like space heresy; Independents look out for each other but aren't a strict government, proscripting obviously exploitative stuff like space kidneys but generally keeping a loose feel otherwise, while Pirates and Tr-Tach pretty much just vibe.

This seems like an easy way to make your flavor slightly more real without any particularly dramatic changes. If you want to be a militaristic Space Church you could ban drugs and kidneys but keep heavy weapons. If you want to roleplay as a drug cartel you can unban space heroin. The option already exists to unban all contraband in your ports, so all that would be required is... some kind of UI to determine which things you like and which you don't. But i am of course unfamiliar with what that would require.

Anyway that's the gist.
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Helldiver

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Re: Player faction item bans
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2021, 02:50:27 PM »

Anything that allows more control over your faction's specifics - such as banned commodities - is good in my book.
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Megas

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Re: Player faction item bans
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2021, 04:03:57 PM »

I do not see the point if the only result of this is less income and nothing else.  This is giving the player a trap option to mutilate himself for no benefit, and that trap option is mixed in among more useful options.

Sure, it is flavorful, but if the result is worse-than-useless, I do not want it.

On the other hand, if banning stuff like everything Heavy Industry produces means the core worlds will not send doom fleets to raze my colony to the ground a few weeks after I build said Heavy Industry, and I can produce real ships of my own without the import penalty in peace, that could be handy for early colonies.
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Helldiver

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Re: Player faction item bans
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2021, 04:13:00 PM »

I do not see the point if the only result of this is less income and nothing else.  This is giving the player a trap option to mutilate himself for no benefit, and that trap option is mixed in among more useful options.

Sure, it is flavorful, but if the result is worse-than-useless, I do not want it.

It could have new bonuses and maluses associated with it.
Having commodity bans that match certain factions could increase your trade and trust with said factions, while allowing trade of commodities banned by others could result in negative actions from them - banning trade with you, reduced repuation leading to being refused at ports and so on.
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Megas

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Re: Player faction item bans
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2021, 04:19:37 PM »

Fair enough.  Although, if trade bans are too harsh (no income from them), I probably would sat bomb (or raid them to the ground) and wipe them off the map to eliminate competition.
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Kakroom

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Re: Player faction item bans
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2021, 09:21:06 PM »

I do not see the point if the only result of this is less income and nothing else.  This is giving the player a trap option to mutilate himself for no benefit, and that trap option is mixed in among more useful options.


You could benefit by selectively legalizing goods. It's not a stretch that someone might be okay with recreational drug usage but not illegally harvested organs or military weapons.
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SCC

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Re: Player faction item bans
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2021, 09:01:26 AM »

I think I would rather have deals with factions that prevent them from raiding you, with a condition that you can fulfill to get them to stop raiding you permanently. For example, Persean League could stop raiding you, if you gave them half of income from your heavy industries and lost 20% ship quality. However, if you take away Kazeron's nanoforge (or disable Kazeron's shipyards through other means), they stop raiding you entirely.

Megas

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Re: Player faction item bans
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2021, 09:39:54 AM »

You could benefit by selectively legalizing goods. It's not a stretch that someone might be okay with recreational drug usage but not illegally harvested organs or military weapons.
The benefit needs to be shown.  Otherwise, player is hurting himself just for fluff or flavor reasons.

I think I would rather have deals with factions that prevent them from raiding you, with a condition that you can fulfill to get them to stop raiding you permanently. For example, Persean League could stop raiding you, if you gave them half of income from your heavy industries and lost 20% ship quality. However, if you take away Kazeron's nanoforge (or disable Kazeron's shipyards through other means), they stop raiding you entirely.
I would go straight for the raid and show them who's boss!

Giving half income is a roundabout way of bribing or paying extortion money, albeit without the story point cost.  (Losing ship quality as part of a bribe is unacceptable.)  Leaves a bad taste in my mouth, especially when it does not take too long to build an endgame fleet that can wipe out all of the core worlds (and I would be willing to wipe them out without thinking twice after all of their abuse if not for pirate spam).  Better to repel expeditions as usual.
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Kakroom

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Re: Player faction item bans
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2021, 11:14:20 AM »

You could benefit by selectively legalizing goods. It's not a stretch that someone might be okay with recreational drug usage but not illegally harvested organs or military weapons.
The benefit needs to be shown.  Otherwise, player is hurting himself just for fluff or flavor reasons.


Do you really need a more expansive indicator than "number go up"?

Besides that, this fluff is important. Thousands of people "hurt themselves" everyday by not profiting off the black market kidneys industry. Many countries as well. If we really run the colony and it's not just a generic PlayerOne-owned moneyprinter it seems like it should be our choice whether or not we want to shape its output through our values. Fighting for your ideal society is a lot more interesting than fighting because income go brrrrr
« Last Edit: March 01, 2021, 11:17:29 AM by Kakroom »
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Megas

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Re: Player faction item bans
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2021, 12:26:26 PM »

Number going up, or some feedback of the results, would be a benefit.  However, your OP did not seem to mention anything of the sort.  Just make things illegal for its sake so the player feels good hurting himself by removing income and no other effects (since you did not mention any), and at the same time, add more buttons to the possibly cramped UI.

This is a game.  I care less about fluff in a game if it does not help my character.  (I may care a little, enough that I dislike stupid stuff like mostly empty mounts on some hulls, mainly carriers and some high-tech warships, being optimal.)  The computer as an enemy will certainly not care if the player gimps himself for emotional reasons and will roll over him if allowed.  If I roleplay, I would not use Free Port, but I use it for that all-important population growth and (eventually) drug exports to feed my miners (and I will not say no to more free money).  Also, in the current release, the game punishes honesty in one of the two quests.  Basically, if the game rewards playing evil or amoral characters, then I will play those characters instead of more heroic ones I gravitate toward.  (In particular, my characters eventually turn into omnicidal maniacs who want to destroy all of the core worlds because they are annoying by being unable to defend themselves from pirates without my help, while at the same time they send big expedition fleets to harass my worlds.)

And there is nothing wrong with a money printer.  Without income, your fleet bleeds money by default by paying salaries; and if later releases lets the player do more space lord things and less low-level runner or headhunter activities, then having more income to hire NPC fleets or do other high-level or kingly things would be nice.
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devurandom

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Re: Player faction item bans
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2021, 04:40:58 PM »

If we are going to have fluff mechanics around item bans, the player should be able to force factions to legalize goods via military intervention. e.g. I should be able to force Hegemony to legalize heavy weapons and AI cores.
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Kakroom

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Re: Player faction item bans
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2021, 09:10:54 PM »

Number going up, or some feedback of the results, would be a benefit.  However, your OP did not seem to mention anything of the sort.

No, it did.

If you want to be a militaristic Space Church you could ban drugs and kidneys but keep heavy weapons.

As in, drugs and kidneys are still banned, but now you're making money from arms sales. Maybe I could've made it more clear.


This is a game.  I care less about fluff in a game if it does not help my character.

That's fine. And certainly there's nothing in this preventing you from maximizing your empire's profitability. And there's something to be said about making it so that the game's rewards loop doesn't ultimately encourage omnicide.

Not to speak for him, but in large part, I do think Alex would agree with you. Starsector is of course generally, overwhelmingly, more focused on producing interesting and balanced tactical challenge and overcoming material obstacles than simulation or enabling personal expression or roleplaying or emergent narrative. Those do happen to be the parts I prefer, which is also fine. As such options catering to those ideas, such as this, might not be high priority in the sense that they're not pursuant to making it a better shooting game, but, you know. They're something I'd like to see.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2021, 10:10:24 PM by Kakroom »
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Megas

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Re: Player faction item bans
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2021, 06:05:52 AM »

If you want to be a militaristic Space Church you could ban drugs and kidneys but keep heavy weapons.

As in, drugs and kidneys are still banned, but now you're making money from arms sales. Maybe I could've made it more clear.
Probably not a good example.  Drugs and kidneys are already banned if Free Port is off.  Since heavy weapons are not banned, you always make money from their exports.
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