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Author Topic: Early Game Issues  (Read 1208 times)

SCC

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Early Game Issues
« on: January 09, 2021, 03:17:39 PM »

Problem #1: unreliable exploration

Description: the chance of finding high value loot early on is not any different to the chance of finding it later. It can be liquidated for a significant money boost and, if done on the open market, can be regained at a later date, when hundreds of thousands of credits are no longer as meaningful as they were in the early game. Whether the player will profit immensely from a salvaging run or barely scrap by is mostly out of player's hands.

Solution: some of the better exploration loot could be moved to semi-quest structures that would put some risk (or, at least, interaction) to acquiring the high value loot, for example:
  • Recently salvaged station that can traced to some fleet in the system. You can choose to fight them for loot or threaten into sharing the spoils, if you are strong enough.
  • A new kind of item, encrypted data, can be cracked either by your fleet over time (bigger ships crack encryption faster), instantly by a trustworthy cracker for a significant sum of money or instantly by a shady individual for much less, but with high risk of having the data sold to someone else on the side, so you have to be first to the location of the loot cache or use gunboat diplomacy to make the first guy hand it over. Or, well it doesn't necessarily have to be location of a loot cache, it can be location of a ship or a condition to a planet that's hidden until you discover it (though the last case doesn't provide any immediate benefit).
  • Some explorarium hardware could still work, but be unpowered. You could return the power to open the survey ship instead of drilling and sawing it open, but it will also power on (or just activate) nearby drones, forcing you into a fight to access the goodies. This would also have the benefit that a harder fight would happen for a reason, instead of just scaling with how much stuff you salvaged already.
Alternatively, it could be selling high value commodities that could be made riskier. Instead of simply going to black market and selling the nanoforge there, the player could have to go to a bar and look for the buyer, with the risk that selling to some buyers might have unintended consequences. Or, well, you could just turn it to the authorities for safer, lower payout.
   
Problem #2: easy access of ships

Description: currently, getting some of the better ships (Tempest being most prominent example) is mostly tied to luck or persistence. And money. But if you acquire a significant sum of money through luck, you can scour through the colonies in the core and come with a bunch of new, powerful toys. The player can move up the food chain quickly and without risk with one good salvage run.

Solution: decrease the chances for dedicated combat ships to spawn in open and black markets. Instead, the source of the player's ships should be contacts, legal or underworld, perhaps through temporary access to military market or other means. However, because getting new ships now involved earning money and then earning reputation to gain the access, this process should not be too time consuming, and military market ship selection should be enticing. Depending on how quickly the player is meant to acquire contacts, perhaps ships in certain sizes (e.g. frigates) should still be available in open and black market, as they currently are.

Problem #3: monotonic fights

Description: early bounties involve fighting pirates, who have limited and poor ship selection. There's little to be gained to the player from enemy fleet and the whole profit comes from the bounty, until you fight fleets with Falcons (P). It's also boring to fight the same few ships again and again.

Solution: pirate fleets could benefit from some randomisation. There could be a low chance for each ship that it will be replaced with any other ship from the whole boardable ship pool or from a particular faction's ship pool. This would provide some variety to fights and more valuable loot. If there's a concern that it might take too much personality from pirates, then only officers should have a possibility of commanding a random ship.

intrinsic_parity

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Re: Early Game Issues
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2021, 03:51:06 PM »

I agree with the idea that the excitement of finding rare stuff can be achieved without actually giving the player the loot right away because the knowledge of the location of good stuff is still exciting, even if you can't get it right now. What if you require AI cores to 'defeat the protection around the central core' or something like that, so you need to acquire/invest some rare AI cores first before you can get the really good stuff, but maybe you could still salvage the basic resources when you first find the station. That would mean your first pass in early game would give you some resources and knowledge of the location of good loot, but you would probably have to come back with other stuff to get the rare goodies. You could achieve something similar by just having a big fleet guarding the rare stuff, but I like that you can get AI cores and loot the rare stuff without a massive fleet, it's just significantly more involved and difficult. You could add some missions that give AI cores as rewards to give an avenue for salvaging rare stuff from stations before you can farm remnants. You also could have a higher chance of getting forges if you bring better AI cores etc. I also like the idea of having hostile fleets spawn and chase you after you loot because it gives you the option of running/escaping.Lore wise, they could be fleets that detected the core breach and came to investigate, or remnant fleets that got activated or something.

In general, I think the game could benefit a lot from scripted hostile fleets that show up during missions of all types. That would make the money-making process significantly more interesting IMO.

I fully agree that the black market needs a significant nerf. TBH, I think that most worlds should not even have a black market shipyard. I would maybe even go as far as to say that the game would be fine if only worlds with heavy industry had ships available for sale. I feel the contact system can be used to provide avenues for illegally acquiring ships. Maybe your black market contact offers you a nice ship for cheap, but a big patrol spawns and chases you, while your military contact might give you a worse deal with no danger.
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Megas

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Re: Early Game Issues
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2021, 03:52:25 PM »

Problem #1: unreliable exploration

Description: the chance of finding high value loot early on is not any different to the chance of finding it later. It can be liquidated for a significant money boost and, if done on the open market, can be regained at a later date, when hundreds of thousands of credits are no longer as meaningful as they were in the early game. Whether the player will profit immensely from a salvaging run or barely scrap by is mostly out of player's hands.
Are you sure about this?  Assuming they do not install the item in one of their industries, will a sold item stay in Open Market permanently, or will it eventually disappear after some item shuffles?

One of my attempted early-game money schemes was to sell a pristine nanoforge to New Maxio's Open Market, raid for it back along with blueprints, sell nanoforge back, repeat.  I gave up after so many failures.  (I eventually succeeded, but I had to save-scum way too much to do it.)

I also considered stealing Conquest blueprints from New Maxios (to their Open Market because I do not want to powerup the zombie pirates) and sell them back as many times as I need.

Given how poorly defended New Maxios is (low ground defense, no patrols), player can start raiding for items early in the game.

Quote
Problem #2: easy access of ships
We had terrible access to ships for most releases.  It is about time they sold good ships for once.

That said, with permamods coming, I expect finding ships will be a one-and-done deal then focused on preserving those ships in your fleet forever.
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SonnaBanana

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Re: Early Game Issues
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2021, 06:48:22 PM »

I'm going to repeat my suggestion for addition of specialized anti-Cruiser/Capital weapons/strikecraft/systems as solution for #2 and #3
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Amoebka

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Re: Early Game Issues
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2021, 11:58:20 PM »

Market RNG for finding good ships is the worst part of the game by far, how about not making it even worse? Either the player should be able to choose which ships they want, in which case markets should have good variety with little RNG, or the player shouldn't, in which case "high-end" ships shouldn't be sold at all ever.

"High-end" ships shouldn't be a game concept in general, no? Right now I feel compelled to circle around the core hunting for rare combat ships simply because the common ones are just complete garbage. The cutthroat requirements of late-game fights (always 120 vs 180 and enemy has triple the reinforcements) DEMAND hyper-optimized fleets to deal with, "making do" with what open markets sell is simply not an option. If all ships (at least all combat ships) were more or less on the same powerlevel, the issue would largely resolve itself.

The exploration part of the post seems like overcomplicating things to an extreme extent. Just add pirates/automated defences/honest salvagers to each research/mining station and call it a day.
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Early Game Issues
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2021, 12:11:04 AM »

Problem #1: unreliable exploration

Description: the chance of finding high value loot early on is not any different to the chance of finding it later. It can be liquidated for a significant money boost and, if done on the open market, can be regained at a later date, when hundreds of thousands of credits are no longer as meaningful as they were in the early game. Whether the player will profit immensely from a salvaging run or barely scrap by is mostly out of player's hands.

I'm not sure how contacts will affect exploration missions in the next patch, but currently, exploration missions are the best return for minimal player investment in the game, so I'm a bit confused why players would only being scrapping by if they choose exploration to make credits.

Undirected exploration on your own is extremely random in payout, but if you actually pick up 2 or 3 missions out in the same direction (or even all directions really), the profit margins jump up.  Especially for a single frigate.  Personally, I never sell rare items - even early game, the credits are kinda trivial relative to the typical mean type between finding them.  Exploration missions typically payout between 30k and 90k, depending on distance.  It really only takes 1-2 missions to see the same payout as a corrupted nanoforge.  5-10 will get you the equivalent of pristine nanoforge, and in the current patch, quite reliable to find given they just pop up on your intel tab.

As a quick sanity check, I just created a vanilla game, wayfarer + shepherd start, grabbed an exploration missions at time zero, bought a mudskipper and dram, did the mission, filled everything up (supplies, some machinery, fuel, some volatiles), grabbed another mission that popped up, finished it, grabbed another 2 missions, and in 17 minutes real time am sitting at 330k credits along with my 4 frigates at around Jul 1, cycle 206.  And one of those missions was a derelict far from the center (neutrino detector is key) in a binary system.  I literally have sold nothing, nor even salvaged anything - simply noted locations of interest and moved on.  And that's skipping missions I couldn't do because they were gas giant explorations.  I'd say I tend to spend more than 20 minutes looking for a pristine nanoforge, so even at the beginning of the game, its not worth it to me to sell them if I do find one.

330k is enough for a small destroyer pack or a single cruiser fully fitted.  It is pretty trivial to collect enough credits to settle a colony in under an hour with a tier 1 starbase and a cheap industry as a base to store my stuff in a system with potential to grow (since I just peak into systems as I fly by to get initial intel) without fighting a single ship or selling a single commodity, and reputation in the bank for every faction because of the missions.

Your description of the problem sounds like you are objecting to the credit to effort ratio that exploration provides.  What do you see as the range of typical credits per time investment of the player currently for exploration, and what kind of range would you like to see after being fixed?

Solution: some of the better exploration loot could be moved to semi-quest structures that would put some risk (or, at least, interaction) to acquiring the high value loot, for example:
  • Recently salvaged station that can traced to some fleet in the system. You can choose to fight them for loot or threaten into sharing the spoils, if you are strong enough.
  • A new kind of item, encrypted data, can be cracked either by your fleet over time (bigger ships crack encryption faster), instantly by a trustworthy cracker for a significant sum of money or instantly by a shady individual for much less, but with high risk of having the data sold to someone else on the side, so you have to be first to the location of the loot cache or use gunboat diplomacy to make the first guy hand it over. Or, well it doesn't necessarily have to be location of a loot cache, it can be location of a ship or a condition to a planet that's hidden until you discover it (though the last case doesn't provide any immediate benefit).
  • Some explorarium hardware could still work, but be unpowered. You could return the power to open the survey ship instead of drilling and sawing it open, but it will also power on (or just activate) nearby drones, forcing you into a fight to access the goodies. This would also have the benefit that a harder fight would happen for a reason, instead of just scaling with how much stuff you salvaged already.
Alternatively, it could be selling high value commodities that could be made riskier. Instead of simply going to black market and selling the nanoforge there, the player could have to go to a bar and look for the buyer, with the risk that selling to some buyers might have unintended consequences. Or, well, you could just turn it to the authorities for safer, lower payout.

I'm not opposed to more scripted missions/storyline type stuff, I'm curious why you're using combat fleet as the gating.  Right now, optimal exploration fleets look different from optimal bounty hunting/combat fleets.  These kinds of story lines leading to combat favor larger fleets with larger combat ships, making exploration fleets look more like bounty fleets, in turn leading to less fleet diversity in the game.

I was under the impression small fleet exploration was supposed to be riskier because of pirate salvage fleets, redacted systems, and the like being out in the deep black, and if you run into them, you need to flee.  If you've got a bounty fleet dealing with these situations, is there really any risk, or is it merely a gear check?  Or simply turning exploration into an alternative to bounty fleet hunting?

Personally, stuff more like pulsar beam effects, or black hole effects make more sense as risky exploration options - as then you're sacrificing supplies and/or fuel and the like instead of requiring your fleet to carry X guns.  A combat fleet handles those kinds of situations worse given the worse cargo to supply recovery ratios.

Problem #2: easy access of ships

Description: currently, getting some of the better ships (Tempest being most prominent example) is mostly tied to luck or persistence. And money. But if you acquire a significant sum of money through luck, you can scour through the colonies in the core and come with a bunch of new, powerful toys. The player can move up the food chain quickly and without risk with one good salvage run.

Solution: decrease the chances for dedicated combat ships to spawn in open and black markets. Instead, the source of the player's ships should be contacts, legal or underworld, perhaps through temporary access to military market or other means. However, because getting new ships now involved earning money and then earning reputation to gain the access, this process should not be too time consuming, and military market ship selection should be enticing. Depending on how quickly the player is meant to acquire contacts, perhaps ships in certain sizes (e.g. frigates) should still be available in open and black market, as they currently are.

I dunno how I feel about turning reputation into a further grind for ships.  It does makes sense thematically.  I just don't like having to gain reputation 3 or 4 times with all the vanilla factions, and then doing it with a bunch of mod factions is just depressing in a single game.  On the other hand, the black market is probably a bit too well stocked at the moment in terms of ships as well. 

More important than ship hulls however, is guns/missiles/fighters.  Right now I tend to find I'm more likely to be weapon limited than hull limited at the very beginning of the game.  If I see railguns for example, I buy a few of them if not the entire stack, at the beginning of the game for example.  If I see a tempest hull, I'd be like, shrug.  Especially if I don't have appropriate medium energy weapons at hand.  I don't need rare combat ships to do well, I just need common combat ships well fit.

Perhaps if there were ways to get larger chunks of reputation at a time late game.  When you can earn enough credits to buy a capital in 1-2 bounties, but only get 5 or 10 reputation, it just feels meh having to do it 7 or 8 more times to get to a high enough reputation to have access to that faction's capitals.  At that point, might as well just turn off the transponder, attack a capital fleet, salvage the ship, and remove the D-mods at a port with all the extra cash.

Problem #3: monotonic fights

Description: early bounties involve fighting pirates, who have limited and poor ship selection. There's little to be gained to the player from enemy fleet and the whole profit comes from the bounty, until you fight fleets with Falcons (P). It's also boring to fight the same few ships again and again.

Solution: pirate fleets could benefit from some randomisation. There could be a low chance for each ship that it will be replaced with any other ship from the whole boardable ship pool or from a particular faction's ship pool. This would provide some variety to fights and more valuable loot. If there's a concern that it might take too much personality from pirates, then only officers should have a possibility of commanding a random ship.

It is an interesting idea, although it would bump up the pirate fleet difficulty.  Hammerheads even with D-mods, for exapmle, certainly can be much harder to deal with than a Buffalo mk II.  Also potentially gets scary as you add in mod factions. Given officers are generally on the biggest/most expensive ships in the fleet, limiting to officers isn't really much of a difference in my mind, or perhaps increases the difficulty even further by guaranteeing only the best ships get upgraded to real faction ships.  Although, even terrible pirate frigates are distraction ships that you can just throw out there and not care about.

I guess I'd be interested to know how much trouble new players currently have with pirate bounty fleets and if they're looking for higher difficulty and better salvage options, or the current difficulty is better?  With the contact system coming up in the next patch, we might have more fine grained control over the risk/reward of bounties, so this might not be necessary.
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Grievous69

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Re: Early Game Issues
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2021, 02:30:05 AM »

While black market can have some really good ships here and there, what would be the point of it if it could never have good ships? Likewise with open market. You'd only ever use them just to buy tankers/freighters. I honestly hate any system which will make the ships/weapons even less accessible, once I visited like 5-6 markets just to find a single Vulcan Cannon. Now imagine this but trying to find a single Hammerhead or a Sunder. No thank you.
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Serenitis

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Re: Early Game Issues
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2021, 05:49:54 AM »

While black market can have some really good ships here and there, what would be the point of it if it could never have good ships? Likewise with open market. You'd only ever use them just to buy tankers/freighters.
I dunno how I feel about turning reputation into a further grind for ships.  It does makes sense thematically.  I just don't like having to gain reputation 3 or 4 times with all the vanilla factions, and then doing it with a bunch of mod factions is just depressing in a single game.

We already went through something similar with faction commissions gating everything useful, when every faction (including indpendants) required one to access anything beyond the most basic ships or equipment. (0.7.1a)
That got changed because forcing the player to play in one specific way in a sandbox environment is a bit silly. (0.7.2a)
Why do we want to do that again just with a different set of hoops to jump through?


One way of 'metering' the loot progression could be to give the drop tables some weighting based on how far from the nearest core system they are.
The further away the drop is, the more likely it is to contain something of value, And vice-versa.
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Megas

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Re: Early Game Issues
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2021, 06:37:56 AM »

Exploration or contact missions is the fallback when bounties outpace character progression, and the player is too small to do anything else for income.

While ship access improved in recent releases, military markets lost their weapon variety and are barely better than Open Market.  They had better weapon variety (but worse ship variety) in previous releases.

In previous releases, before commissions were added, I spent millions buying up ships (that I did not want) to clean out markets and force them to restock next month, just to have a chance at rare ships spawning for sale.  It is like gambling for good rares at Gheed's in Diablo II.

I never sell rare items that I may not get back later.  I only do so when they install them in an industry and I can steal them back with a raid.  Even if I can, raiding for them back is either hard or tedious.  It is tedious enough to steal the nanoforge they start with, and all factions start with one installed in their orbital works.  New Maxios is the easiest place to raid and abuse for forge tricks, and that is hard because of the low chance to steal it in the first place.  (Player cannot raid too much too soon because of stability.)
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SCC

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Re: Early Game Issues
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2021, 01:58:35 PM »

I fully agree that the black market needs a significant nerf. TBH, I think that most worlds should not even have a black market shipyard. I would maybe even go as far as to say that the game would be fine if only worlds with heavy industry had ships available for sale.
If there were fewer ship (and weapon?) selling markets, then they could offer bigger variety in their choice. I don't think it would impact the balance much, but it would make acquiring (particular) ships and outfitting them without hoarding every single weapon you have ever came across easier. I would like to see this actually gather ships from all of faction's markets and put them in colonies with heavy industry or military colonies, so that it would scale with a (mod) faction size. Either way, more stuff in one place sounds better.

I feel the contact system can be used to provide avenues for illegally acquiring ships. Maybe your black market contact offers you a nice ship for cheap, but a big patrol spawns and chases you, while your military contact might give you a worse deal with no danger.
I thought it can be already, with that manufacturing/custom ordering without your own colony thing Alex mentioned in comments to contacts blog post.

I was under the impression small fleet exploration was supposed to be riskier because of pirate salvage fleets, redacted systems, and the like being out in the deep black, and if you run into them, you need to flee.
Those are supposed to be risky? Salvage fleets of all kinds you avoid, redacteds you skip, out in the deep black... Well, that doesn't really change much, fights or not.

If you've got a bounty fleet dealing with these situations, is there really any risk, or is it merely a gear check?  Or simply turning exploration into an alternative to bounty fleet hunting?
Explorarium drones are already like that, aren't they? It would be nice to take a break every now and then. I don't want exploration fights to match bounty hunting fights, but to get some variety. Besides, those semi-quests don't even have to automatically force you to fight. Instead, fleets could be spawned that you can outmanoeuvre or slip by undetected instead.

More important than ship hulls however, is guns/missiles/fighters.  Right now I tend to find I'm more likely to be weapon limited than hull limited at the very beginning of the game.  If I see railguns for example, I buy a few of them if not the entire stack, at the beginning of the game for example.  If I see a tempest hull, I'd be like, shrug.  Especially if I don't have appropriate medium energy weapons at hand.  I don't need rare combat ships to do well, I just need common combat ships well fit.
I was actually considering making a thread about how weapon distribution is terrible currently, but I figured out I may make a separate thread about it later. It indeed is a problem and I wish "rare" weapons would be easier to find in small quantities, without having to search all the markets and buy entire stacks of them.

It is an interesting idea, although it would bump up the pirate fleet difficulty.  Hammerheads even with D-mods, for exapmle, certainly can be much harder to deal with than a Buffalo mk II.  Also potentially gets scary as you add in mod factions. Given officers are generally on the biggest/most expensive ships in the fleet, limiting to officers isn't really much of a difference in my mind, or perhaps increases the difficulty even further by guaranteeing only the best ships get upgraded to real faction ships.  Although, even terrible pirate frigates are distraction ships that you can just throw out there and not care about.

I guess I'd be interested to know how much trouble new players currently have with pirate bounty fleets and if they're looking for higher difficulty and better salvage options, or the current difficulty is better?  With the contact system coming up in the next patch, we might have more fine grained control over the risk/reward of bounties, so this might not be necessary.
Pirate fleets could have their composition tuned to counteract the difficulty increase from better ships, but the main issue is that pirate ship pool is unfortunately boring. People don't play Starsector because it's easy or hard, but because it's fun, so increasing fun factor by not fighting the same fleet composition every time is the entire point.

Thaago

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Re: Early Game Issues
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2021, 02:42:45 PM »

For ship access, here's my analysis:

Currently getting any high quality ship is quite easy and fast, assuming the player has credits: visiting any system in the core with multiple good stability colonies nearly guarantees that there will be at least some good ships with no D mods in either the open or black market. Good relations and a commission takes some time/work, but vastly improves the selection. Recovery is also now much better than in the past for players that want to engage in high energy negotiation with faction fleets, and late game players can make their own ships too.

However, searching for a specific ship is quite annoying, and can drive players to bad gameplay: visiting multiple systems markets trawling for it, savescumming a battle until its recoverable, etc. If the player is actually motivated to find a specific ship for any reason, from it being very good to just them wanting to play something new, then that leads to unfun time wasting gameplay. No good, and the incentives that make it worthwhile for players to do bad gameplay should be removed.

Hopefully in the next version the contact based system will eliminate the gameplay need for visiting many systems looking for ships or savescumming recovery (though I know that there is no way to eliminate it entirely: if its possible for any negative events to exist, no matter how mild, there are players that will savescum and there's no stopping that. But lowering the incentives by providing alternate routes to the outcome will hopefully steer the majority towards more fun gameplay). Since the contact system increases ship availability, I don't see an issue with decreasing the ships available in markets somewhat as long as its a balanced change.

Replacing "fly around visiting markets and maybe get what you want" with "visit contact, do mission for contact (or just pay?), get ship you want 100%" would be a great benefit imo even if it takes equivalent/more time, as long as the mission is interesting (which itself can be tricky!), because its replacing boring gameplay time with interesting gameplay time.
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Morrokain

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Re: Early Game Issues
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2021, 02:49:59 PM »

(Thaago ninjaed this a bit :P )

Hm, I think we need to stop basing our responses to these suggestions off of the current or past implementations of the game. As far as "it's hard to find stuff already right now don't make it worse" kind of posts, I feel it's misleading to make such statements when other features that are coming will already make accessibility easier. Why are we ignoring the contacts system? Or the new emphasis on early game raiding? (Not saying we are ignoring them as a whole but specifically in regards to ship accessibility conceptually.)

For the sake of argument, let's assume changes are made so that now only freighters and tankers are available on the open market. Let's then assume that the only ships available on the black market are "useless" things like the condor, pirate vessels, heavily D-modded ships, etc. Military markets have all the good stuff, period. So essentially 0.7.1a's markets on steroids.

I am not actually suggesting that this is the way to go, but, considering that this is a worst case scenario for those wanting easy access to ships, now let's ask the question "do I have to get commissioned and have high rep with each faction now?!" The answer is a definitive no. Why? Because the contacts system let's a player circumvent that requirement. (As a counterpoint, however, we aren't sure how long it takes to get a contact to allow a player to circumvent this requirement. Still, we know it's at least possible to do so.)

I would also suspect that if this were implemented, the amount of time a player would have to go searching market to market would be reduced not increased since the idea would be to create more variety behind each gated market. RNG isn't needed nearly so much. It's just a matter of pacing instead of luck (only in regards to ships/weapons not everything).

So, circling back to the idea of meaningful choices and player constraints, doesn't this create a lot more meaningful choice? Currently, the choice is simply "which ships do I want?" with the effort being constrained by RNG and market hunting. The additional choice that would be added by the gate is pretty meaningful:

Example:
Spoiler
1st choice: "What ship/ships do I want?"

When answered: creates new considerations/choices -

2nd choice: "Which faction, if any, do I commission with?"

Constraint: Can only choose one.

When answered: Unlocks a set of ships weapons - but the constraint means you can't get all the ships you'll likely want from choice 1, so -

3rd choice: "Which factions or markets have the rest of what I want?"

When answered: Player chooses contacts to get access to those markets.

Constraint: Limited number of contacts. But! - story points are an option to get more.
[close]

So from my perspective, this creates a much more interesting game than what essentially boils down to "ship whack-a-mole" through searching black markets. Open markets and military markets don't generally feel different enough to warrant meaningful choice between the two at the moment. Well, at least unmodded. (*EDIT* Eh, maybe a bit of an exaggeration. Probably better to say that it could be more so.)

The example is also misleading in that there are a lot more branches - such as exploration, derelict recovery, and colonies.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2021, 03:02:16 PM by Morrokain »
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FooF

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Re: Early Game Issues
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2021, 03:58:56 PM »

It's hard to base anything off the Contact system because none of us have used it. I'm in agreement with you that we can't be "stuck" using the current game but the current game is the only known quantity. How easy/efficient/specific the Contact system will be in regards to getting ships you want is still a mystery. You're right: the system will undoubtedly alleviate some of the concerns being raised but to what degree remains to be seen.

Re: going back to 0.7-style ship availability and meaningful choice. Whereas there was no recourse to ship buying back in 0.7, we now have blueprints/colony production and next patch we'll have Contacts. I think you could gate military ships behind commissions with much less fuss than before.

As long as ultra-rare ships get their availability adjusted somewhat (i.e. Aurora, Odyssey, etc.), I think the need to get a commission to outright buy high-end ships is fair. There will be other ways of acquiring the same ships but a commission will be the most straightforward way. However, a commission has its own drawbacks. (As a complete aside, it just dawned on me that I don't think I have *ever* fought an Odyssey in the past 2 years of playing. If I have, it has been maybe once. That seems...odd...to me)

Re: weapon availability

This is where the markets could be highlighted. If good hulls were almost exclusive to military markets with commission, the open and black markets could be much more robust with their weapon variety. There isn't much recourse with weapon availability because blueprints seem rarer and often come in the large blueprint packages. I also don't believe the Contact system will give us access to weapons.

So, I think both open and black market weapon availability could be bumped up. I do agree that there should be more distinction between open and black markets. Strangely enough, I think open markets should more routinely have the better weapons (just low quantities). You'll have to pay the tariff but at least they'll be there. With the black market, you'll be more at the whim of RNG but occasionally you'll find a stash of the good stuff for cheap. Military markets (with commission) will be the best place to get weapons but again...commission.

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RustyCabbage

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Re: Early Game Issues
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2021, 04:07:01 PM »

Re: ship access imo the only thing I'd change is give Black Market ships more d-mods so that there's at least an impression that black market ships are a bit inferior; it does feel kind of silly to me when I find noticeably better ships in the black market for much cheaper prices. That and maybe bar non-Atlas/Prometheus Mk. II capital ships from showing up (or at least reduce the rate at which those capital ships spawn).

(Also more consequences for trading through the black market would be nice. I don't even turn off my transponder when trading at this point.)

Problem #1: unreliable exploration

Description: the chance of finding high value loot early on is not any different to the chance of finding it later. It can be liquidated for a significant money boost and, if done on the open market, can be regained at a later date, when hundreds of thousands of credits are no longer as meaningful as they were in the early game. Whether the player will profit immensely from a salvaging run or barely scrap by is mostly out of player's hands.

I'm not sure how contacts will affect exploration missions in the next patch, but currently, exploration missions are the best return for minimal player investment in the game, so I'm a bit confused why players would only being scrapping by if they choose exploration to make credits.

Undirected exploration on your own is extremely random in payout, but if you actually pick up 2 or 3 missions out in the same direction (or even all directions really), the profit margins jump up.  Especially for a single frigate.  Personally, I never sell rare items - even early game, the credits are kinda trivial relative to the typical mean type between finding them.  Exploration missions typically payout between 30k and 90k, depending on distance.  It really only takes 1-2 missions to see the same payout as a corrupted nanoforge.  5-10 will get you the equivalent of pristine nanoforge, and in the current patch, quite reliable to find given they just pop up on your intel tab.

As a quick sanity check, I just created a vanilla game, wayfarer + shepherd start, grabbed an exploration missions at time zero, bought a mudskipper and dram, did the mission, filled everything up (supplies, some machinery, fuel, some volatiles), grabbed another mission that popped up, finished it, grabbed another 2 missions, and in 17 minutes real time am sitting at 330k credits along with my 4 frigates at around Jul 1, cycle 206.  And one of those missions was a derelict far from the center (neutrino detector is key) in a binary system.  I literally have sold nothing, nor even salvaged anything - simply noted locations of interest and moved on.  And that's skipping missions I couldn't do because they were gas giant explorations.  I'd say I tend to spend more than 20 minutes looking for a pristine nanoforge, so even at the beginning of the game, its not worth it to me to sell them if I do find one.

330k is enough for a small destroyer pack or a single cruiser fully fitted.  It is pretty trivial to collect enough credits to settle a colony in under an hour with a tier 1 starbase and a cheap industry as a base to store my stuff in a system with potential to grow (since I just peak into systems as I fly by to get initial intel) without fighting a single ship or selling a single commodity, and reputation in the bank for every faction because of the missions.

Your description of the problem sounds like you are objecting to the credit to effort ratio that exploration provides.  What do you see as the range of typical credits per time investment of the player currently for exploration, and what kind of range would you like to see after being fixed?
Imo this is an issue with the fact that you don't need a single combat ship to do exploration and stuff if you don't want to (and indeed the profit margins are higher when you don't). I could see a lot more of the issues SCC suggests if you actually needed to equip yourself before venturing out of the core. Personally, I'd like more pirates/derelicts/scavengers/remnants interactions while exploring.