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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Writing Starsector  (Read 15432 times)

David

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Writing Starsector
« on: December 17, 2020, 11:05:23 AM »

Blog post here.
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Igncom1

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Re: Writing Starsector
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2020, 11:22:43 AM »

I must admit, I do feel like I read a thousand words that ultimately said nothing.

But anyway sounds promising!
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Sunders are the best ship in the game.

Thaago

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Re: Writing Starsector
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2020, 12:07:49 PM »

Quote
so I’ll give you fair warning now: if you don’t want to know anything, stop reading.

I... actually think I'm going to stop reading there? The idea of playing a new game of SS with no idea what content is coming up is just way too appealing. I still remember the very first time I went exploring when the outer worlds became a thing.
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mendonca

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Re: Writing Starsector
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2020, 12:18:11 PM »

Thank you David, genuinely love reading about this and can't wait to see what you've got for us!
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"I'm doing it, I'm making them purple! No one can stop me!"

SCC

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Re: Writing Starsector
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2020, 12:29:33 PM »

Quote
2: I kinda hate the word and concept of “lore” as applied to videogames, though I’ll use it. It feels like a failure somehow if “lore” is a strongly separated concept from the media work itself. This probably has structural roots in media works being consciously acted upon nowadays as intellectual properties that must have profitable derivative works spun off, and… save this rant for another day. (And I say all of this as someone who played Brigador and spent all my money on lore unlocks before anything else, so don’t take me too seriously.)
Up until now, I thought lore meant "everything that isn't the main story (though side quests might not count as well)". I guess I don't watch movies enough, or other derivative works, to associate lore with that.
I must admit, I do feel like I read a thousand words that ultimately said nothing.
Indeed.

TheDTYP

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Re: Writing Starsector
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2020, 12:44:44 PM »

Quote
Let me use a question asked by TheDTYP in the forum as a starting point:

SEE, MOM? TOLD YOU I WOULD BE FAMOUS ONE DAY.
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Grievous69

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Re: Writing Starsector
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2020, 12:45:38 PM »

Very interesting read, sure it doesn't say anything specifically but that's the whole point? Trust me it's better not to get spoiled. Also lmao at that Megas easter egg, he really is famous.
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Tartiflette

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Re: Writing Starsector
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2020, 01:04:49 PM »

Interesting writing. I have one remark about the skill check issue though. Skills are still a reflection of a player's character: A player that put all your skill points into combat tells something about their particular avatar's inclinations. And as such it could/should influence the way other people react to that character.

Individual skill checks are useless indeed, and would cause a lot of frustration from the sheer amount of times a player won't have the right skill at the right time. It could be alleviated somewhat if officer skills could be accounted too, but that's still a limited solution. On the other hand, the number of skill points put into a skill branch could represent accurately the competency of our "Han Solo" at a specific type of actions, and could be used as a floor check for some specific special dialog options (with the story points as a fall back option).

For example having a special "notice the hidden door" dialog option unlocked to a captain that spent 8 skills in the technology tree could be an interesting twist, as long as there is still a decent option to players' characters that cannot pass that check. Or an intimidate option to force a surrender for having spend 12 points in combat...

(Also, congrats on completely derailing the 11th Starsector tournament's stream!)
« Last Edit: December 17, 2020, 01:17:58 PM by Tartiflette »
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David

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Re: Writing Starsector
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2020, 01:42:03 PM »

On the other hand, the number of skill points put into a skill branch could represent accurately the competency of our "Han Solo" at a specific type of actions, and could be used as a floor check for some specific special dialog options (with the story points as a fall back option).

For example having a special "notice the hidden door" dialog option unlocked to a captain that spent 8 skills in the technology tree could be an interesting twist, as long as there is still a decent option to players' characters that cannot pass that check. Or an intimidate option to force a surrender for having spend 12 points in combat...

We did try a bit of this! I even wrote the first part of the major mission arcs going in under the assumption that we'd be using skill categories as a cue for options. It's probably the best version of skill checks, but it still didn't really feel like it was going to meaningfully contribute to the game. As I say in an edit to the blog post, it feels neat and elegant as a solution, but it doesn't really add to the experience.

(Now that said, a modder could go and try to prove us wrong!)

(Also, congrats on completely derailing the 11th Starsector tournament's stream!)

Oops. Sorry guys!

Up until now, I thought lore meant "everything that isn't the main story (though side quests might not count as well)". I guess I don't watch movies enough, or other derivative works, to associate lore with that.

If I had to take two absurd examples 1. JK Rowling saying Dumbledore is gay and otherwise trying to add meaning to the books well after the fact of publishing, though this particular case has been parodied to the point of meaninglessness, and 2. Star Wars dropping lore bombs in Fortnite or something? Both examples feel cynical in different ways.

... Or maybe something like how much of games like Overwatch and League of Legends lean on building meaning for the games outside of the games themselves. Then again, TF2 did the same, and I enjoyed that stuff? If it's just a matter of new games vs old, then I'm simply a curmudgeon. I think I need to think on this some more before I can really figure it out. 

Thank you David, genuinely love reading about this and can't wait to see what you've got for us!

:D

Quote
so I’ll give you fair warning now: if you don’t want to know anything, stop reading.

I... actually think I'm going to stop reading there? The idea of playing a new game of SS with no idea what content is coming up is just way too appealing. I still remember the very first time I went exploring when the outer worlds became a thing.

This man is making Chairman Yang proud!

I guess the post isn't actually too spoilery on a surface level, but I do believe a ton can be inferred about how the experience is going to feel if one does a close read.
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FooF

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Re: Writing Starsector
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2020, 01:43:08 PM »

Good stuff, David. I like the thought process and to the degree that everyone's power/escape fantasy will be dashed against the rocks when the story becomes more concrete, yet you have to be concrete somewhere (i.e. assuming that the player is a "Han Solo" type). I'll be very interested to see where this goes.

As a fellow lore-hound, I do love me some info-dumps from time-to-time but I agree that "lore" divorced from gameplay is to be avoided. The only time I think it has worked for me was Homeworld. The manual was lovingly-crafted to get you invested in the plight of the people, their hopes and dreams in building the Mothership, etc. and then you get..."Kharak is burning." It was a gut punch precisely because "lore" came first but this is the exception that proves the rule: other games' tomes of backstory never achieved the desired effect.

My "staring off into the ether of Quake" experience was playing a Sega Genesis game Shinobi III. It had intricate backgrounds (and enemies) that begged all sorts of question but never answered them. Why is there a giant biological head attacking me? Why is there a whole factory of MechaGodzillas? What the heck are the kites in the background of the 1st level? I had my own headcanon as to how this world operated (I think I was about 10 at the time). I love how we all world build if we're curious enough about the mystery. I hope Starsector shares its story instead of tells, if you catch my meaning.
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Eji1700

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Re: Writing Starsector
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2020, 02:24:40 PM »

"Conclusion: we don’t as a rule do skill checks in dialog – there’s an exception, but it’s largely for flavor – instead we use story points to let players choose when and how to be a totally awesome hero of their own story."

This might be a missed opportunity.  It doesn't take a lot to have skill checks feel like a nice way to really personalize a run.  They don't need to be huge, but "sneak in instead of shoot everyone" is a pretty classic one.  Going back to your archetypes, if we're han solo "bribe the man and be on our way" is probably just as valid as "*** you come get some", but it feels a little better when the first one is "locked" behind having the right skills, or even equipment (shielded hulls in this case).

Obviously you have to be careful because for many people this doesn't become player expression so much as one more thing to route and min max (always make sure you have a plot ship with solar shields/shielded hull/etc so you can trigger the better plot choices), but so long as the skill versions aren't 100% superior, and just feel more "in character" they can be a really good way to get value out of multiple runs.

Overall i get it (one less thing to develop/balance/test for questionable returns) but i'm hoping that at the very least we can mod some stuff in?
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Tartiflette

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Re: Writing Starsector
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2020, 02:28:44 PM »

We did try a bit of this! I even wrote the first part of the major mission arcs going in under the assumption that we'd be using skill categories as a cue for options. It's probably the best version of skill checks, but it still didn't really feel like it was going to meaningfully contribute to the game. As I say in an edit to the blog post, it feels neat and elegant as a solution, but it doesn't really add to the experience.

(Now that said, a modder could go and try to prove us wrong!)
If we are talking about skill checks required to solve a particular problem, then yes I 100% agree it won't contribute positively to the game since it would force taking potentially sub-par skills for a particular build just to have access to some content.

If however skill checks are used as a way to get alternative and more flavorful solutions to a situation, to get hints and extra intel about some events, or maybe even more subtle: alternate lines from some characters depending on the player's specialty, then I would tend to say they can have a place in the game. As long as a player does not need to built around them to get a desired outcome they can only add to the immersion without detracting from the core gameplay.

[edit] Skill checks could also be used the other way around, to warn a player that they may have troubles with a particular assignment if their combat skills are too limited, the travel might be arduous without logistic skills, you might get the option to get extra help at low level and so on.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2020, 02:33:48 PM by Tartiflette »
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Concrete

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Re: Writing Starsector
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2020, 04:22:08 PM »

It is very interesting, taking that leap from the "unfinished game" of infinite narrative possibilities to something specific happening and considering which might be "better." I certainly don't find it enviable to be in a position to compete with the imagination of literally every player, but here's hoping the work paid off. I'm very much looking forward to it, despite the nerves.

Lore is a word that'll differ dramatically based on the context, I think. If I'm talking about say the first Mass Effect game or perhaps The Elder Scrolls series prior to Oblivion, then the word "lore" becomes somewhat of a curse as I cling to the few precious shards of narrative that weren't abandoned or desecrated in some form as the franchise continued. I agree that the word can become an issue when separated too far from its original work, if one observes others talking very delicately around something, it implies that something went wrong: "Oh. They're only talking about specific parts of the lore, not the game. There must have been an accident."
But I think people can generally pick up on that context, and it doesn't subtract from using the word when talking about media you're still excited for.


And while this topic of writing is fresh, I'll just type out some thoughts that have been swimming around in my head for awhile. Of all the writing presently in the game, my two favorite pieces are just tiny little descriptions, but I'd still like to praise them.
First, the description of the Gremlin-class frigate. And secondly, the short little bit of text describing the experience of flying through an inert ring.

I enjoy the setting of the game very much, but I feel as though I engage on a grander scale than just as an individual. I've played many characters but never really felt any difference in the narrative of my experience, until I read the Gremlin's description. It interested me enough to wonder what exactly it would feel like to actually be a crew member on a piece of trash constantly offending reality with its phase ability. I then started a game with only a Gremlin(this is a terrible gameplay experience, for reference) and even though I quickly moved on, the narrative of my character actually being changed by the experience of flying around in a Gremlin just kept rolling through my head. Even with it long behind me, I imagined that the character might suffer physical ticks or other small indications of derangement from the experience. That they might be paranoid as a consequence of captaining a ship whose only defense is to hide, and isn't very good at it at all. All evoked by a simple description of a ship.

The text describing a pointless flight through a dead ring didn't lead to any character story in my head, but it helped me imagine the people of the sector. It's very easy for the rings to be graphically displayed and nothing more, and I might not have felt anything about them. But the described experience of flying through one and nothing happening really does a great job of capturing the relationship between the rings and the people of the sector. The awe people feel about something they know of, but do not understand.


I'm not sure who is credited with writing those two little tidbits of text, but regardless of that they're both really great and I haven't said so anywhere before now. I felt like I should.
Thanks for the blog post and for the excuse to ramble.

The Human Hive is the best faction, by the way.
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Gothars

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Re: Writing Starsector
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2020, 04:39:18 PM »

I won't be really reading this blog post before release (although I skimmed it), just wanted to mention that the blog comment function was activated. Probably by accident.

Btw, have you guys ever seriously considered text to speech options? I would love the option to have stuff read to me from time to time. And a computerized voice would even be thematically fitting.
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Megas

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Re: Writing Starsector
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2020, 04:50:44 PM »

Don't get me started on old games... oops, too late!

I got Quake hoping to play a more advanced Doom, but was mostly disappointed with it until I could mod and do things with it that I could not do in Doom.  (My computer was too underpowered to build maps, so I went from Doom map-making to Quake QC mod making.)  Was disappointed more by Quake 2 because it played more like Hexen than a fast shoot-'em-up like original Doom.  I missed my 100% kills and stuff.  Also not too fond of Quake being dominated by deathmatch at the time instead of fun single-player action that I enjoyed in Doom.

Shinobi 3 played like an updated Revenge of the Shinobi.  The first Revenge had some pop culture bosses, the Terminator that turned green like the Hulk and chucked cars (fourth boss), Spider-Man who changed into Batman after taking enough damage (sixth boss), and Godzilla (seventh boss).  I did not care if they did not make sense.  Fighting them was more entertaining that non-descript cores or trains (third and fifth bosses), or even the flickering shadow ninja (second boss).

My first experience with arcade games were pinball machines, before video games became widespread.  There were not very many video games to play in the late 70s.  In the 80s, I liked playing shoot-'em-ups like Tempest and Robotron 2084 most.  Basically, when I play games, I want to either win or survive as long as possible.  I do not think much about plot, and why would I (at the time) when graphics were simple sprites or wireframe objects.  I guess I considered (early) video games like an extension of pinball machines.

I think more about plot when I want to create something.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2020, 05:01:44 PM by Megas »
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