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Author Topic: Writing Starsector  (Read 15545 times)

RustyCabbage

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Re: Writing Starsector
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2020, 05:09:52 PM »

Cool blog post!

As someone who rushes for dialogue-altering skill choices in every RPG I play, I'm rather glad that skills won't end up being used for checks and stuff. Though I suppose this means I'll be hoarding story points for a large portion of the game :p (probably what I would have done anyways, so not much lost there)

Megas

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Re: Writing Starsector
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2020, 06:16:34 PM »

Another comment about games:

I sometimes get annoyed with games that forget they are a game.

Remember the first Half-Life?  I remember reading great things about it.  I did not get the game until years later when it could be found in the bargain bin (along with other gems like arcade game compilations).  After I got Half-Life, I eagerly installed it only to be quickly disappointed with it.  I first tried the tutorial, which I got annoyed when it was time to try advanced crouch-and-jump combo moves.  I thought, ugh, now I am playing 3d Super Mario instead of a simple run-and-gun like in previous first-person games?  I decided to play on and did not find out because I got bored with what came after I started a game.

A big cutscene.  Okay, the game thinks it is a movie showing credits and stuff.  Then, I move my character around and meet the obnoxious scientists.
 After a while of wandering around and getting frustrated with the various annoyances, I quit the game and uninstalled it.

Years later, I got Doom3.  It reminded me of what I did not like about Half-Life, although it was not quite as bad.  Still, the gameplay did not feel good.  Running was as slow as old walking, and it has a stamina meter like Mortal Kombat 3.  The only level that was fun was the sole Hell level (with guardian boss plus Quake scrags) because it felt a bit like classic Doom, plus stamina was unlimited.  Pretty as it was, the level was linear, and had some obnoxious platform elements.

Finally, anyone watch the "If Doom was done today?" or "Call of Dooty" parody videos at YouTube?  That is what Half-Life felt like, and I would not want to play a defictionalized Call of Dooty.  Watching the videos is hilarious, though.

What I liked about classic Doom is it does not waste time trying to show off.  You grab a gun and kill things like a maniac like in an arcade game.  It also does not try to be realistic by making your guy sluggish like a cripple or killing him after falling down a little more than a few pixels.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2020, 06:24:08 PM by Megas »
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Ishman

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Re: Writing Starsector
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2020, 06:30:51 PM »

Chiming in on skill-points - I actually think it's a good opportunity for two things. Flavor (different approaches that net you the same result in practice, more dialogue branches where you just chill with your
Spoiler
[BEST QUEST GIVER WAIFU AND WHY IS IT INDEPENDENT]
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due to having similar "interests"), and as a way to limit the player. I think one of starsector's biggest gotcha's is that it's difficult, and without intimate familiarity with it, you see many people rushing headlong into content that they don't have a hope of scraping through, without Helmut at the keyboard.
Your fleet of lashers, tempests, hammerheads, and one capital that feels tanky clearing out officerless 5 d-mod pirate fleets is not, in fact, capable of going toe-to-toe with any faction's normal fleet of 4cap/4cruiser/4destroyer/6officer/no d-mod. Having to meet certain skill checks to progress through the structured story, seems like another tool to guide newer players through the game. And if this sounds limiting for all of the people who don't need this, it can be disabled by turning off the tutorial/skipping the intro start/a flag set by 'beating' the main story (equivalent to having built your own
Spoiler
planetary shield
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in the current version).

At least, that's my impression I see from the 'bad game'/refund posts, that they've rushed into things too quickly. Similar to the complaints brigador/synthetik sees.
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Sundog

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Re: Writing Starsector
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2020, 07:04:48 PM »

Thanks for the post, David! Very much looking forward to reading hundreds of thousands of your words!

Quote
There are choices to make: some change your outlook immediately. Some don’t matter. Some don’t seem to matter until they come up again way later
This worries me a bit. There's nothing more annoying and immersion breaking than being presented with dialogue options and thinking "okay, but what am I actually choosing here..."
Case in point:
Spoiler

From a gameplay/optimization standpoint the second option is objectively correct. The first is a trap. I don't even know what happens if you choose 3 in spite of my unhealthy obsession with this game. Options like these are horrible, because they lead to one of two very unsatisfying outcomes:
  • The player takes a shot in the dark, never being sure whether or not they made a mistake
  • The player googles it, and potentially chooses an option that is untrue to their character's character for the sake of practicality
Ideally, players should be presented with clear information about choices of roughly equal practicality, but where that's not feasible I would much rather not have a choice at all.
[close]

Quote
we don’t as a rule do skill checks in dialog
Thanks!

Nighteyes

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Re: Writing Starsector
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2020, 10:43:37 PM »

Quote
How about instead we assume the player’s space captain is a generally competent person.

Challenge accepted.


Side talk: This suggestion is obviously to be taken with a grain of salt since the required time investment would likely be absurd but in terms of story, I think something akin to Stellaris / Rimworld AI director would work very well in giving each universe flavor and keeping players on their toes, but not punishing them into an unrecoverable failed state.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2020, 10:48:08 PM by Nighteyes »
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Morrokain

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Re: Writing Starsector
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2020, 10:48:11 PM »

I loved reading this and getting insight into how the narrative will operate! I think the approach is a good one.

Quote
Spoiler
Now let’s temper some expectations: Factions will come into play, the player will interact with prominent figures from most of the factions, but we’re not making players swear loyalty to them as part of the primary storyline. That said, having a commission or extreme reputation with a faction one way or another will impact certain situations.
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Imo that is the best way to go about it. The narrative becomes too messy otherwise since a lot of the choices a player likely has to make won't make sense under that context. If the narrative is built to that context, the amount of complexity becomes too high and effectively creates a "you need multiple endings representing each narrowly defined path" constraint that would quickly become unmanageable.

On the other hand, I like that this sort of thing isn't completely ignored either. I was hoping that would be the case to some extent. If not, then part of the illusion of an "alive world" is lost. This segues into:

Quote
Spoiler
How about instead we assume the player’s space captain is a generally competent person. Then instead of locking out options based on skill restrictions, let us take a positive route and allow the player choose the way in which they excel at the time of the choice as it comes up naturally in the dialog. Let the player lie and send a fake cryopod to the mercenary demanding they hand over the VIP, giving the player enough time to make their escape – AND take a finders fee of 20k credits from the merc. If that’s who the player wants their player to be, that is.
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Speaking of alive worlds, I respect the decision to avoid skill checks as skills are already hard enough to balance without that extra nuance thrown into the equation. Nevertheless, I think it is fairly imperative that on some level the sector reacts to the personification of the character archetype in some way that is outside the scope of the narrative. It's definitely a start to have different paths to solve a specific problem, but if nothing actually happens from those choices other than a brief alternate dialogue sequence and a differing mission object? Well... the roleplay scenario kind of loses the sense of meaningful impact through player choice. Player choice will be present, sure, but it needs the other side of the feature - lasting consequences/implications from that choice.

As an example that I'll put in spoilers just in case it happens to be too close to an actual plot arc or something:
Spoiler
Luddic Path world is causing trouble for the sector at large and something must be done. You the player can:
A) Talk them down from further aggression.
B) Station a blockade to prevent anyone from leaving the planet.
C) Pay pirates/mercenaries to increase their raids on the planet and distract them.
D) Invade with your forces and capture the planet yourself.
E) Use Tri-Tachyon's Planet Killer device and blow the world out of the stars.

The Player chooses E.

Now, if the next time the player stops at the local bar on Tartessus and his contact goes "Hey what will it be this time, Han?" instead of standing in shock/outrage at the appearance of the infamous butcher of Chalcedon then it is going to feel really weird.
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Obviously that's an extreme choice that warrants an extreme reaction and not every choice is going to need such things to be believable. But you see what I mean. A player's chosen archetype only goes as far as the sector's reaction to that archetype. Even small things like a brief addendum to a planet's description based upon consistent choices in the narrative really, really help sell the illusion.

The above concept is what I think skill checks were originally designed for. It is a way of simulating reaction to archetypes by enabling/disabling options based upon prior choices. It is very possible to do that without marrying the skill system and dialogue though. It just has to be approached from opposite side of the concept. A good but over-the-top example would be Fable's notoriety/morality system.

Warning: me just rambling mostly off-topic below this point.

Quote
Media created purely and cynically in-anticipation-of or in-reaction-to viewer feedback is generally… bad (and is absolutely a certain level of Hell for any creative person).

Yes, yes 100% yes! This is one of my biggest pet peeves with media narrative alongside mindless, pointless shock and awe brutality tactics just to get people talking about it. It's a cheap way of using the medium and is almost always painfully transparent. So too is knowing what your viewers/typical genre audience expects and deliberately doing the exact opposite in order to tote around the idea that you are "genre defying."

Trying to be vague here but *spoilers* maybe? - (Unrelated to Starsector)

Spoiler
The Red Wedding worked really well because it was a carefully interwoven culmination of well-written and fleshed out individual narratives that centered around a fundamental ongoing event. The beauty of the twist there is it pulls the rug out from under all of that in a way that not only shocks you and makes you care about the characters even more, but also provides meaning and drive for the following scramble of choices that ensues from all those narratives being suddenly cast adrift from what seemed (to the audience and the actual characters alike) like a foregone conclusion.
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In short: The senselessness of the event is ironically the driving force for the rest of narrative. It makes a powerful statement and you genuinely don't see it coming because it's so against the norm of a traditional epic.

Juxtaposition that to the part in the second Aliens vs Predator movie where:

Spoiler
the token hot girlfriend suddenly loses her plot armor and its forgotten about 2 seconds later
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That not only did literally nothing for the narrative, but it practically screams "Look at me! Look at me! I'm an anti-trope trope! I'm a good movie, darn it!" (It wasn't.)
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Embercloud

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Re: Writing Starsector
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2020, 03:18:43 AM »

I always wanted a text adventure in starsector
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SonnaBanana

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Re: Writing Starsector
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2020, 03:48:32 AM »

Will there be randomized outcomes for choices that do not use story points?
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Megas

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Re: Writing Starsector
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2020, 04:54:33 AM »

Quote
As an example that I'll put in spoilers just in case it happens to be too close to an actual plot arc or something:
Spoiler
Luddic Path world is causing trouble for the sector at large and something must be done. You the player can:
A) Talk them down from further aggression.
B) Station a blockade to prevent anyone from leaving the planet.
C) Pay pirates/mercenaries to increase their raids on the planet and distract them.
D) Invade with your forces and capture the planet yourself.
E) Use Tri-Tachyon's Planet Killer device and blow the world out of the stars.

The Player chooses E.

Now, if the next time the player stops at the local bar on Tartessus and his contact goes "Hey what will it be this time, Han?" instead of standing in shock/outrage at the appearance of the infamous butcher of Chalcedon then it is going to feel really weird.
Variation of E, sat bomb the colony until it is destroyed.  Who needs planet killers when all the player needs is enough fuel?

I think I have an unhealthy obsession with saturation bombing.  That said, I would like option D if the colony limit was not so low, alpha abuse notwithstanding.

And when my character morphs from Han Solo to Ming the Merciless, sat bombing all of the core worlds seems like fun.
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IonDragonX

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Re: Writing Starsector
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2020, 05:51:06 AM »

Why does the Forum header say: News: Blog post: Personal Contacts (08/13/20);
Shouldn't it have " Writing Starsector "?
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David

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Re: Writing Starsector
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2020, 06:08:25 AM »

Will there be randomized outcomes for choices that do not use story points?

If we ever 'do a dice roll' for these, it'll be done at mission generation, not in response to a player choice made. I guess at some point we made a policy choice to not do random percent chance of success type resolution because it feels like something that prompts players to reload if they don't like the result. Better to skip that step.

I think I have an unhealthy obsession with saturation bombing.

(*Takes a note* And this is why you're an important point of reference.)

I always wanted a text adventure in starsector

You'll get it :D


Nevertheless, I think it is fairly imperative that on some level the sector reacts to the personification of the character archetype in some way that is outside the scope of the narrative.
...
The above concept is what I think skill checks were originally designed for. It is a way of simulating reaction to archetypes by enabling/disabling options based upon prior choices. It is very possible to do that without marrying the skill system and dialogue though.

Yeah, I think this is basically what we're getting at. Skills may be a convenient set of stats, but they don't really define who you are as a person (though we explored this angle a little bit). And even then, perhaps Starsector isn't so concerned about who you are as a person (like Disco Elysium absolutely is), but who you are to other people. That's an angle we can use!

It's also possible to invest infinite effort into fleshing out every possibility if one isn't careful. So there's a lot to be said for doing this economically.

Warning: me just rambling mostly off-topic below this point.
...
In short: The senselessness of the event is ironically the driving force for the rest of narrative. It makes a powerful statement and you genuinely don't see it coming because it's so against the norm of a traditional epic.

Yeah! That, and ah, Ned's fate - these are huge moments because of the carefully constructed foundations of meaning and narrative. D&D tried to pull the same trick later on, but they don't seem capable or interested in doing the work to build it up, so it fizzles.


(Gotta take care of some stuff; will get back to replying in a bit!)
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Megas

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Re: Writing Starsector
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2020, 07:26:16 AM »

I think I have an unhealthy obsession with saturation bombing.

(*Takes a note* And this is why you're an important point of reference.)
You guys put in saturation bombing.  What is the fun of it if we cannot use it for anything more than a non-standard game over like later Ultima's Armageddon spell?

At first, I wanted to use it to enact megalomania villain plot (of killing everyone and colonizing the entire sector).  Later, it evolved into pest control to make the bullies stop (their expeditions).

My only problem (well, two) with sat bombing is it is too easy to kill all of the core worlds (and indie aggro).  Why mess with sector politics of Survivor in space when I can trivially make them disappear, aside from permanent zombie piracy alerts?
« Last Edit: December 18, 2020, 07:33:23 AM by Megas »
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Wyvern

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Re: Writing Starsector
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2020, 08:15:14 AM »

Hm. Yeah, I don't think having skills enable options works well for the context of Starsector.

I do, however, think that - where appropriate - options (or just the text in general) should acknowledge skill choices.

For example, one space captain might order her ship's gunners to open fire on a target. Another captain, who's invested in gunnery implants, might instead just lock on and load up a firing sequence via direct neural interface.

I'd also be fine with skill choices having some impact on option prices - anyone can spend a story point to do X, but if you've got the right skill, you get a bit more bonux XP off it.
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

SonnaBanana

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Re: Writing Starsector
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2020, 08:26:11 AM »

Will there be randomized outcomes for choices that do not use story points?

If we ever 'do a dice roll' for these, it'll be done at mission generation, not in response to a player choice made. I guess at some point we made a policy choice to not do random percent chance of success type resolution because it feels like something that prompts players to reload if they don't like the result. Better to skip that step.

Not for whether a choice is correct or not but more like "Open a container and get 2 plasma cannons on one playthrough and 100 organs on another". Or "your target's a Legion in the far north east vs a Conquest just 40 ly west of the core", to add variety to quests. Instead of "roll at least 47 or don't get anything".


I'd also be fine with skill choices having some impact on option prices - anyone can spend a story point to do X, but if you've got the right skill, you get a bit more bonux XP off it.
No, base it on number of skill points invested in an aptitude instead. No "this skill is only good for two checks so I won't puchade it next time" kind of viability issues"
« Last Edit: December 18, 2020, 08:36:37 AM by SonnaBanana »
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Megas

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Re: Writing Starsector
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2020, 08:35:46 AM »

Re: Sundog's post
I ruthlessly exploit stuff like that after I learn of them.  (I am not above reading spoilers first to avoid getting burned by a bad decision.)  When in doubt, I tend toward heroic options, but I will not bat an eye taking other options if one of them is optimal.  I agree that does not feel good.  If crime pays while being a hero hurts, then the player is incentivized on being a villain.
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