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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Why is Restore Expensive?  (Read 7914 times)

Alex

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Re: Why is Restore Expensive?
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2020, 02:39:49 PM »

FWIW, I've been thinking of having an optional setting - during new game creation - that would make *endgame things* happen past a certain point in time, so that if you wanted a more challenging/pressured game, you could do that and be essentially on a timer to make things work. But it'd very much be optional; a lot of the appeal of sandbox games is in being able to putter around and do things at your own pace (and fine-tune your own difficulty by being more or less prepared), so I think that's important to keep.

But, yeah, if you have unlimited preparation time, that does take some of the challenge out. Which is not the worst thing in the world - you can still learn and improve (and then need less preparation), and so on - so the benefits of having a challenge are still there even if you can always get a soft landing by doing it later - but it might be nice to have a mode where it's amped up. Not sure exactly how (or even if) it'll be realized; just my current thoughts on the subject.
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xenoargh

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Re: Why is Restore Expensive?
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2020, 03:16:11 PM »

If the game's "too easy" because of something like that, there are several better ways to fix the underlying problems.  I honestly just kind of wondered what was up with that number; the last time I played, I didn't recall it being like that, and it doesn't make sense, if the objective is to get players to prefer capturing --> fixing rather than just buying new. 

Like, if you just want to encourage people to keep junker fleets, the Supply-cost stuff works OK, but what really makes it work well is setting the price tiers for the various ship classes a lot more steeply, so that you're priced out of anything but Destroyers until midgame+, and out of Capitals until lategame+.  This also feels a lot more real, too; you can't buy a battleship with a couple of smuggling runs.

[EDIT]I'd love to see "endgame things", personally.  Well-staged, they'd give players an ultimate hill to die on ;)[/EDIT]

[EDIT 2]I've had captures be a looooooooot more rare, especially for Cruiser+ ships, for the better part of a year.  It also serves as an excellent brake on player power.[/EDIT 2]
« Last Edit: December 07, 2020, 03:20:02 PM by xenoargh »
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Re: Why is Restore Expensive?
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2020, 03:27:25 PM »

a lot of the appeal of sandbox games is in being able to putter around and do things at your own pace (and fine-tune your own difficulty by being more or less prepared), so I think that's important to keep.

My $0.02:
I'm glad as well as relieved to read that statement. Sandbox gameplay flexibility (along a time axis as well as a space axis) is a large part of why I'm here in this particular game. If that aspect were not adequately retained, I would have to seriously re-evaluate my interest in Starfarersector despite otherwise being well-disposed toward most of the game.
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FooF

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Re: Why is Restore Expensive?
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2020, 05:30:35 PM »

As it pertains to restoring D-modded ships, the only thing I've never liked is the "1 Dmod=X, 2 Dmods= 2x, Dmods= 3x" etc. I don't mind front-loading the bulk of the restore cost into the first D-mod for pacing reasons but the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. shouldn't make Frigates cost as much Cruisers. I get the logic of the mechanic: "restoring is prohibitively expensive so don't do it" but it's a real buzzkill to finally(!) salvage an Aurora but then it has 3 D-mods on it (and, undoubtedly Degraded Engines). I can live with certain D-mods but some are instant "Nopes" and sometimes certain hulls are hard to come by. Since we can't select which D-mods we want to get rid of, it makes otherwise valuable hulls worthless because restoring multiple D-mods can easily bankrupt you. I simply suggest scaling back the subsequent D-mod prices and perhaps putting a cap on total restore cost.

As far as an endgame timer...I'm all for it. Though, I hope that in the sandbox play, there are missions/events that trigger such endgame happenings (with giant disclaimers that say "POINT OF NO RETURN" or some such). Knowing you're living on borrowed time does...motivate...certain playstyles and strategies. As long as it's an option, and not mandatory, I see no downside.

That being said (and possibly going off into tangents), I wouldn't mind more voluntary "gear checks" in the game, even in the sandbox. The Cryosleeper "boss" is a good example of gating a high-value item behind a gear check. The Red Planet mission also does this but by the time I get around to it, it usually doesn't present much of a challenge. To the degree that REDACTED systems also function this way, outside of farming AI Cores or finding above average planets, they're completely avoidable.
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Megas

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Re: Why is Restore Expensive?
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2020, 06:18:18 PM »

Maybe have Restoration cost as much as a ship from Open Market (with the tariff), no matter the (D)-mods.  That is a bit expensive (compared to Black Market or especially building your own with Orbital Works), but not outrageously so.
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Morrokain

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Re: Why is Restore Expensive?
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2020, 07:24:09 PM »

I agree that reducing restoration costs would also require a rarity adjustment on recovering ships. Otherwise there really isn't much of a point to things like a commission for military market access. Salvaging ships after a battle becomes the primary way to obtain ships. Market purchases would likely become secondary or even unattractive. That actually makes sense lore-wise and wouldn't be a bad thing gameplay-wise imo (the noob trap part of the current system is a bit problematic), but there would have to be other adjustments in certain areas of the campaign system. Otherwise they might just get ignored by most players.

One idea is to leverage the contacts system kind of like how early access to blueprints is supposed to work. Want to restore a battleship? You are going to have to be really good friends with a high ranking official to do that. Lore reason: Average restoration shops don't have the manpower or equipment and so you need access to military-grade restoration facilities, etc. Something like that could mitigate having to do things like increase ship costs between hullsizes or possibly even having to adjust recovery rarity.

I also could definitely imagine a scenario where a player could use story points to "buy" that relationship for a one-time restore - with the number of points needed scaling by the number of D-mods on the ship and its hullsize.

*EDIT* Just brainstorming based upon the above for complementing the idea with a player colonies mechanic:

 Industry Building: Restoration Facilities
 - Gives X more credits per month for restoration services to general colony traffic. (Behind the scenes and not actually removing anything from nearby npc fleets.)
 - Grants small X bonus to player faction Ship Quality. (So npc player fleets theoretically have access.)
 - Grants the player the ability to restore frigate and destroyer hulls and remove up to 2 D-mods at this colony (Restoration price is deducted from the colony's monthly income.)

Upgrades to:

 Industry Building: Orbital Restoration Shipyard
 - Requires X colony size or some other requirement?
 - Gives original + X more credits per month for restoration services to general colony traffic. (Maybe gets more attention to the player from other factions whether good or bad?)
 - Grants original + small X bonus to Ship Quality. (Representing the idea that cruisers and capitals can now also use this and smaller hullsizes can remove more D-mods.)
 - Grants the player the ability to fully restore any hull at this colony at the cost of the restoration price being deducted from the colony's monthly income.
 - Building this at the cost of an Industry slot combined with Corrupted Nanoforge get's a sizeable Ship Quality bonus? It could increase that item's usefulness in a niche way over pristine ones.

As far as an endgame timer...I'm all for it. Though, I hope that in the sandbox play, there are missions/events that trigger such endgame happenings (with giant disclaimers that say "POINT OF NO RETURN" or some such). Knowing you're living on borrowed time does...motivate...certain playstyles and strategies. As long as it's an option, and not mandatory, I see no downside.

I generally like this method more than a "global timer until DOOM" sort of thing. Global timers can be really stressful in a RNG-filled sandbox. Then again, its optional so its less likely to matter overall.

Xcom did compartmentalization of difficulty pretty well. It was explicit when an action would noticeably increase either the campaign or average battle difficulty. I appreciated it because I could hold off until I got the new research I was working on or one of my soldiers recovered, etc. That was even despite a global timer on top of it, so maybe combining the two implementations like that would be interesting.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2020, 11:41:36 PM by Morrokain »
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bakerbelays

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Re: Why is Restore Expensive?
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2020, 11:18:29 PM »

I am a huge fan of expensive hull restoration, if anything it should be 10-20% more expensive. I think it's one of the best things in the game.

It introduces interesting decisions. It incentivizes d-mods, ironically it also makes a player hate d-mods. It punishes failure, especially punishing a 0 supply final push. It punishes picking bad fights, it deincentivizes the recovery of garbage ships. There are so many things d-mods help to balance. Getting rid of d-mods for less money is blasphemy.

Restoring ships is, and should continue to be, a massive investment. Having a perfect ship should be intentional; it should be a planned endeavor.

And Pirates walking around with pristine turtle waxed ships? Pass
« Last Edit: December 07, 2020, 11:20:04 PM by Talos »
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Grievous69

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Re: Why is Restore Expensive?
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2020, 11:59:26 PM »

And Pirates walking around with pristine turtle waxed ships? Pass
No one is suggesting this...
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Megas

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Re: Why is Restore Expensive?
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2020, 05:15:45 AM »

Military markets and all of that stuff is early-game or mid-game drama.  By late-game or endgame, player can have all of the blueprints and can build whatever he wants.  (Another reason why endgame is the best part of the game.)  Of course, permamods mean I only buildup the initial force, then keep the same ships forever because I do not want to bleed out story points left and right just to replace mod ships I lose.

Military market means nothing without commission, and player can have only one commission to one of the factions, and no one faction has everything.  Black Market may be an easier place to find and buy ships.  (The few ships I buy early are from Black Market.)

Restoring ships is, and should continue to be, a massive investment. Having a perfect ship should be intentional; it should be a planned endeavor.
If it is the cheapest way to preserve those two or three mod permamod ships, but still too expensive, hello reload-and-replay-until no casualties like in pre-0.8 releases.  Would rather keep current Loadout Design 3 instead of moving to permamods if this is the result.  (Permamods seem to be the replacement for +OP% skills, and most ships have too few or barely enough OP even with LD3.)  Yes, losing skill points for an obligatory skill hurts, but not as much as highly punishing losses, such that reload-and-replay-until-no-losses is faster than grinding up money or story points for a replacement.

Fight massive bounty for 300k, when the cost of a single capital casualty will set the player back twice as much or more, that is stupid unless the player is so overpowered that he cannot lose, but even then a mistake can cost too much.

Quote
Salvaging ships after a battle becomes the primary way to obtain ships
For me, it already is.  I make do with clunkers until I get a nanoforge and build Orbital Works to produce what I want.

P.S.  How much ships should cost?  Do we use Open/Military market as the baseline?  Or Black Market or colony production?  Me, I never use military market (no commission), Open Market only to buy a freighter or tanker in a pinch.  Most purchases are Black Market or colony production, which is significantly cheaper than Open Market plus tariff.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2020, 05:28:57 AM by Megas »
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SCC

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Re: Why is Restore Expensive?
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2020, 05:25:38 AM »

FWIW, I've been thinking of having an optional setting - during new game creation - that would make *endgame things* happen past a certain point in time, so that if you wanted a more challenging/pressured game, you could do that and be essentially on a timer to make things work. But it'd very much be optional; a lot of the appeal of sandbox games is in being able to putter around and do things at your own pace (and fine-tune your own difficulty by being more or less prepared), so I think that's important to keep.

But, yeah, if you have unlimited preparation time, that does take some of the challenge out.
I'd say that infinite preparation time takes all of the challenge out, unless you're impatient. I can't wait for story/crisis stuff, currently game sort of starts in a won state, because how can you lose? You cannot. What do you have to do? Nothing.

IonDragonX

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Re: Why is Restore Expensive?
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2020, 05:42:42 AM »

What bothers me about D-Mods and Hullmod Modspecs are the lack of time. If you have the funds to repair a D-Mod, it is repaired instantly... INSTANTLY? REALLY? If you want to expand your cargo holds on your Colossus and add Heavy Armor, the change is not only instant but ITS FREE! REALLY? Why? The only thing that's free is your imagination.
I'd like to see the ability to bring 2 Hammerhead (D) to a repair bay and have one cannibalized for parts on the other. The repair bay gets paid for a week's work minus the scrap value of the worse ship. The player parks his fleet, transfers to a civvie shuttle, and goes to visit the neighboring market for a few days. Alternatively, the dockside bar has a new option: to R&R until a new bar option pops up or the repair job is complete.
Do we finally commit to immersion? Does the lore matter? If it does, then repairs & Hullmods take time and money while zombie pirates just vanish with no feasible way to support their magical lifestyle. If it doesn't matter, then this is not a simulated sector, its just a really big arcade.
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Megas

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Re: Why is Restore Expensive?
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2020, 06:01:08 AM »

Quote
Do we finally commit to immersion? Does the lore matter? If it does, then repairs & Hullmods take time and money while zombie pirates just vanish with no feasible way to support their magical lifestyle. If it doesn't matter, then this is not a simulated sector, its just a really big arcade.
It is a game, and combat plays a bit like an arcade game (which is good), although it ought to be faster paced.  Starsector combat feels slow as molasses compared to other games.

Reality can be bent for fun (or avoid boredom) or quality-of-life.
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DatonKallandor

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Re: Why is Restore Expensive?
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2020, 07:38:43 AM »

I do not fully agree with this.  It just means the player puts up with junk early until he no longer needs to.  Most of my games began much the same.  Beat up pirates, make do with a junk fleet of mostly Enforcers, Mules, and Shrike (P) until I take down some stronger fleets, then get more clunkers (from bounties or expeditions) until I can finally build my own pristine ships near the end of the game.  Forcing the player to live with inferior junk is not adding anything, it just forces the player to live with, well... junk.  That is not fun, because it says the player is not allowed to have nice things (until after significant grinding or other tricks).  As I wrote previously, it is a reason why I like endgame most, because player has nice things then.

It helps if you don't think of D-mod ships as "junk" and pristine ships are normal, because that's not the case. D-mod ships are the normal, and pristine is the rare legendary item. Hell thinking of it in ARPG terms could help with the preception:

Pristine is legendary, orange top loot that you are only swimming in in the endgame. As you add more and more D-mods the quality of the ship goes down the colour spectrum.

Pristine would lose all meaning if it was easy to get, the progression would be shot to hell and the game would just in general be worse. The fact that ubiquitious D-mods also fits the fluff is just a bonus but a welcome one.
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Megas

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Re: Why is Restore Expensive?
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2020, 08:03:48 AM »

Quote
It helps if you don't think of D-mod ships as "junk" and pristine ships are normal, because that's not the case. D-mod ships are the normal, and pristine is the rare legendary item. Hell thinking of it in ARPG terms could help with the preception:
Uh, no.  I totally reject that.  Especially after playing earlier releases before (D) mods were a thing.  This is totally "player cannot have nice things, and player will take junk and like it."

Pristine is not legendary when it is widespread among major factions without the Ludd name.  Pristine is normal.  Junk is for apunkalyptic factions like pirates or the anti-tech Ludds.

I consider permamods the Loadout Design 3 substitute, and ships without LD3 (or permamods) are seriously OP starved.  Again, if the choice is casual play with Loadout Design 3 vs. annoying gameplay with ultra-rare ships with permamods, I prefer the former.  Even if Loadout Design 3 burning a skill choice is annoying, it will probably be the lesser of two evils.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2020, 08:09:00 AM by Megas »
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Why is Restore Expensive?
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2020, 08:10:24 AM »

I think from an outfitting perspective, it's pretty clear that ships are balanced around their pristine stat values in terms of what weapon set ups you can use effectively, and how they perform in a fleet.
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