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Author Topic: Quick question: Does Advanced optics increase ALL energy weapon range?  (Read 5223 times)

Retry

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Re: Quick question: Does Advanced optics increase ALL energy weapon range?
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2020, 11:36:19 AM »

Personally I wouldn't use heavy weapons like plasma on an Apogee; it has fantastic flux stats but the AI's flux management is notoriously bad when it has high flux weapons.  An apogee with good point defense and anti-fighter weapons with an officer who can vent hard flux will hold the line for days but give it a plasma and it WILL flux itself out...
If it were still 0.8 I'd be inclined to agree, but this is not true whatsoever as of the current patch.  700 base flux + 30 vents put you at 1000 flux.  Operating a Plasma Cannon constantly costs 825 flux/s, and Apogee Shields w/ stabilized shielding requires an additional 210 flux/s, for a total of 1035 flux/s, or 35 flux/s excess.  That'd take over 5 minutes to flux itself out, and can be offset using an officer with the flux skill, the Design skill that increases maximum vents, or the flux distributor hullmod.

There'll be a few other weapons producing flux, sure, but considering their varied and non-overlapping firing arcs it's highly unlikely that both those weapons, the Plasma Cannon, and the shields are all going to be actively engaged all the time.  If that is the case, the Apogee is probably not in a realistically-survivable scenario, Plasma Cannon or not.
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Radio Edit

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Re: Quick question: Does Advanced optics increase ALL energy weapon range?
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2020, 04:42:10 PM »

-snip
« Last Edit: November 29, 2020, 04:46:45 PM by Radio Edit »
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Radio Edit

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Re: Quick question: Does Advanced optics increase ALL energy weapon range?
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2020, 04:45:51 PM »

You don't even need the dissapaition hull mod. I setup my Apogee with: 2 ion cannons + Plasma cannon at front, Squall + Swarmer, and 2 heavy blasters at the back. It can kill ANYTHING within the 30/40 point range with ease, doesn't even overheat most of the time. Vents are 30 and cap 8
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Goumindong

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Re: Quick question: Does Advanced optics increase ALL energy weapon range?
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2020, 12:27:12 PM »

Plasma cannon, burst PD (small) in the medium slots

You’ve got flares as a system and a .7 Shield. No real need to use pd let alone burst PD. Hblaster or phase lance are much better anti-fighter if you’re concerned with that
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Quick question: Does Advanced optics increase ALL energy weapon range?
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2020, 03:42:38 PM »

Plasma cannon, burst PD (small) in the medium slots

You’ve got flares as a system and a .7 Shield. No real need to use pd let alone burst PD. Hblaster or phase lance are much better anti-fighter if you’re concerned with that
Hb or PL on auto fire at fighters while fighting other ships with a plasma cannon is great way to suicide by flux capping. PD is also still useful if you are shield flickering since it keeps engines covered when shields are down (front shields), and the AI will drop shields sometimes as well, so I think it is worthwhile. I also think that even with .7 shields, sometimes it's still better to shoot down missiles with PD than take them on shields (stuff like reapers definitely cost more flux to shield tank, plus you build soft flux instead of hard flux with PD). If I didn't use burst PD, I would leave the slots empty. It feels like enough small benefits to justify it for me.
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Goumindong

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Re: Quick question: Does Advanced optics increase ALL energy weapon range?
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2020, 04:22:35 PM »

You have flares and shields and dead fighters are worth less flux than eating their damage.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Quick question: Does Advanced optics increase ALL energy weapon range?
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2020, 05:22:33 PM »

Two heavy blasters cost 1440 flux/sec, that's a lot more than any fighter wing does (not to mention they can miss)... I think I would rather eat fighter damage while Burst PD kills them and use locust if things get very bad. Having HB in a non forward facing slot just to kill fighters on a ship that couldn't even use them effectively as main weapons makes no sense to me.

My actual strategy for dealing with fighters is to have air superiority with my own fighters, and omen escorts on vulnerable ships with PD mostly to stop bombers/missiles or clean up fighters. That being said, I've lost my flagship due to not paying attention to missiles one too many times, so I always have PD near the engines on any ship I have a chance of flying. It's worth the peace of mind to me if nothing else. It's not like it matters... at worst it's a small inefficiency. Heavy blasters seems like they pose a major risk of straight up losing the ship if they cause an overload at a bad time. That's much worse to me.

Maybe there's an argument for phase lance, but I haven't had good experiences with them. They get wasted on nothing or into shields too frequently for my liking because the turn rate after you fire is bad (can't track thing for the full burst really). I'm not even sure if they will target fighters when you have something else targeted?
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Retry

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Re: Quick question: Does Advanced optics increase ALL energy weapon range?
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2020, 08:43:59 PM »

The flux overhead by itself makes using HBs as dedicated anti-fighter weapons rather impractical, and frequently counterproductive.  I still put a bit of PD-type weapons on the turrets, in part because the active flares have a rather lengthy recharge time and don't have a 100% success rate, and in part because I generally have some spare OP for my builds, a bit of burst PD as another line of defense to soften fighters and missiles isn't going to kill me.
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Goumindong

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Re: Quick question: Does Advanced optics increase ALL energy weapon range?
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2020, 11:34:55 PM »

Two heavy blasters cost 1440 flux/sec, that's a lot more than any fighter wing does (not to mention they can miss)... I think I would rather eat fighter damage while Burst PD kills them and use locust if things get very bad. Having HB in a non forward facing slot just to kill fighters on a ship that couldn't even use them effectively as main weapons makes no sense to me.

My actual strategy for dealing with fighters is to have air superiority with my own fighters, and omen escorts on vulnerable ships with PD mostly to stop bombers/missiles or clean up fighters. That being said, I've lost my flagship due to not paying attention to missiles one too many times, so I always have PD near the engines on any ship I have a chance of flying. It's worth the peace of mind to me if nothing else. It's not like it matters... at worst it's a small inefficiency. Heavy blasters seems like they pose a major risk of straight up losing the ship if they cause an overload at a bad time. That's much worse to me.

Maybe there's an argument for phase lance, but I haven't had good experiences with them. They get wasted on nothing or into shields too frequently for my liking because the turn rate after you fire is bad (can't track thing for the full burst really). I'm not even sure if they will target fighters when you have something else targeted?

It’s not the Flux per second they do it’s the net flux damage they do.

A broadsword does 164 DPS and has 750 hull and 100 armor. A Heavy Blaster disables it in one hit and kills it in 2. It takes a burst PD laser at least 13 seconds to kill it. Even vs your .6 shields this is 1264 dmg. And this assumes that the broadsword doesn’t get to use any of its free flux. 1264 hard flux plus 780 soft flux vs 1440 soft flux.

But wait, it gets better. The second fighter in the wing gets to do DPS while the burst PD is killing the first and while it’s killing the second. It deals damage for 26 seconds when it only deals damage for 4 seconds for the HB. This is an extra 2164 damage(2558 total)! Hard flux. The HB has expended 2880 soft flux, taken 393 hard flux while the burst PD has expended 1560 flux and received 3882 hard flux!

But wait! It gets better. A broadsword wing has an entire third fighter that gets to shoot the entire time the other two fighters are alive! It lives for 6 seconds vs the HB and 39 seconds vs the burst PD! So it gets to do another 3837 damage in that time! So now the HB has expended 4320 soft flux, taken 1181 hard flux for a total of 5500 flux. The burst PD has expended 2340 soft flux but received 7675 hard flux for a total of 10015 flux, almost twice the heavy blaster. Even if the flux cost of the burst PD is entirely zeroed out due to being under flux usage and the flux cost of the HB is not because you also fit 60-120 flux/second more primary guns the HB would be ahead by almost 50%

If you’re having tracking issues use IR Pulse or phase Lances. It does not matter if you overflux to kill fighters. Because plinking at them while they deal damage to you is worse. If you have to use PD then regular old PD lasers tend to be best. They deal better DPS, enemy armor barely matters, and they are much more efficient. Burst PD is for missiles. Press f when you don’t want to tank a missile.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Quick question: Does Advanced optics increase ALL energy weapon range?
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2020, 12:11:05 AM »

Congratulations, you've established that killing fighters is in fact better than not killing fighters, but that doesn't change the fact that putting heavy blasters on auto fire while you are engaging things with a plasma cannon will frequently overload and kill you. The option of dying is not superior to the option of dying. You also picked the absolute worst case for BPD and best case for heavy blaster. On the opposite end of the spectrum, two BPD will wipe out a wing of wasps faster than a heavy blaster and at a fraction of the flux cost (obviously the opposite extreme). The wasps might not be threatening but if you're fighting something else that is threatening at the same time, you will be much better off with a bunch of extra flux to utilize. Also, skills make BPD way more effective against fighters while not really doing anything for heavy blaster.

Once again, not arguing that BPD is a better, or even good option against fighters, just saying it does provide some value there in addition to the value it provides against missiles which add up in my opinion. Like I said, I have locusts if I'm getting swarmed, and I attempt to build my fleet to help against fighters, so I find that heavy blasters are much more likely to cause problems than solve anything. I have also clearly stated that the burst PD is primarily for an extra layer of security against missiles if the flares are already used (they have a long cool down) and/or I am shield flickering, so that I don't need to worry about paying super close attention to my rear and can focus on other things. I believe they also help the AI avoid stupid mistakes that cost me supplies which is valuable to me.

It's fine if you don't feel like that is sufficient justification for mounting them, but there's no need to go on a crusade to prove they are useless when there is clearly some value in mounting them. It's all subjective evaluations of cost vs benefit.
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Schwartz

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Re: Quick question: Does Advanced optics increase ALL energy weapon range?
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2020, 01:41:23 AM »

Re: Plasma Cannon. It's actually a perfect match for the Apogee. It has a deep flux pool and will be able to handle it well. I would not add 2x Heavy Blaster to it however, as these are less efficient and firing 1x PC continuously keeps both the Apogee and its target plenty busy. Add 2x Pulse Laser, 2x Burst PD, 1x Locust and be merry.

Beam loadouts are not terrible either. Not as good but certainly good enough. A HIL coming in from the unshielded flank is dangerous as hell.
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Maeleth

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Re: Quick question: Does Advanced optics increase ALL energy weapon range?
« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2020, 06:20:48 AM »

Beam loadouts are not terrible either. Not as good but certainly good enough. A HIL coming in from the unshielded flank is dangerous as hell.

True, but why not field a Sunder instead? It's pretty common and costs less, has more mobility, plus twice (actually more, depending on actual weapons) the forward facing DPS, with enough hard flux damage to be a threat by itself.
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Goumindong

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Re: Quick question: Does Advanced optics increase ALL energy weapon range?
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2020, 07:43:37 AM »

but that doesn't change the fact that putting heavy blasters on auto fire while you are engaging things with a plasma cannon will frequently overload and kill you.

As of the last patch it should almost impossible for the side HBs to fire forward. Unless you’re flanked by frigates they should not fire and if you are see “killing fighters is better than not killing fighters”. And again, you don’t have to run HB. You can run phase Lances or pulse lasers
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Quick question: Does Advanced optics increase ALL energy weapon range?
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2020, 08:23:07 AM »

It's definitely not always right to shoot back when you're getting flanked in a fleet context. The best choice is often just run back to allies and vent, and not shooting can buy you more time to do that. Engaging multiple enemies from different directions at once is not a good idea in the first place. If you actually can't escape and are forced into a situation where you are engaging a major target while also getting flanked by frigates, you're probably just dead no matter how you build your ship. Locusts are probably the get out of jail card in that case.

I use this loadout constantly for the AI and have 0 issues with apogees dying, so I see very little benefit to changing it, just ways that it can cause problems that aren't already occurring. I haven't experienced any of these problems when I've used it, so there's no reason to 'fix' them.

Also, I don't use sunders in the later game because sunders die a lot and apogees almost never die in my experience.
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Igncom1

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Re: Quick question: Does Advanced optics increase ALL energy weapon range?
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2020, 08:25:01 AM »

It's definitely not always right to shoot back when you're getting flanked in a fleet context. The best choice is often just run back to allies and vent, and not shooting can buy you more time to do that.

Forgot where I was for a moment and was like, damn that's good life advice!
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Sunders are the best ship in the game.
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