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[Megas]

Eight to ten burst PD on Conquest is handy for picking off mines from enemy Doom or star fortress.

@ Thaago: I tried Ion Beams on Conquest before, and they simply take too long to knock out something.  By the time something gets knocked out by EMP, the target is about dead from Conquest's overwhelming firepower from ballistics and Locusts.

With Eagle, I can see the point of Ion Beam, but Conquest has too much firepower to need Ion Beam.  No need to fry weapons or engines when the enemy explodes in fiery pieces.

Twin mjolnirs + 2x heavy needlers + ion beam is 1934 flux. Those are reasonably sensible loadouts in 2 range bands with flux intensive large mount guns, and both are in budget. Anything using HAGs/MkIXs in the largest or flaks in the mediums for extra PD is even cheaper.

I usually use Mjolnir + Heavy Needler + Mark IX on each side.  Sometimes, when I do not have elite weapons, I use HAG + 2x Heavy Autocannon + Mark IX instead.  If I use Ion Beam on top of that, not only extra flux use hurts when I want to use both sides at the same time, but I also need to give up Expanded Missile Racks to afford it, and that is a non-option if I want Locusts to last long enough in a fight.

[Goumindong]

If you're running EMR you're probably better off with MIRV and ECCM. Its only 4 more OP but will hit a LOT harder in terms of killing enemy ships after you shred them of their shields

[Arcagnello]

The result is a ship that reliably 1v1s any other 40FP unit in the whole game and is the only 40FP ship capable of clubbering a 4tach lance Paragon without taking a iota of damage when player controlled (since the AI is not reliable enough to stay at max range, eh)

Odyssey is technically 45 FP, but a player controlled one can defeat any Paragon build without taking more than few armor scratches as well. Key is plasma burning to Paragon's side and sticking there, out of most of it's weapon arcs.

Damn you TaLaR, you know I have a sweet sweet spot for the Odissey and I can't deny anything you reply with if you also mention that beauty of a capital

The AI will use maneuvering jets to get better position and save its life.  It will use burn drives to dive stations and get itself killed.  Also the thermal pulse cannons on an onslaught are fixed and so spread out its common for one stream to miss the target when firing both simultaneously, wasting a LOT of flux and time, whereas the conquest has large turrets that can properly focus fire.  While the onslaught may have more total firepower, the conquest is much better at bringing a given quantity of guns to bear on one target with much better convergence--and if that side somehow gets knocked out by EMP or sheer damage it can flip over and fire the other broadside while the damaged guns repair themselves.  If the conquest gets flanked, it hits the jets and flips--if the onslaught gets flanked, it dies.

For station sieges, the onslaught is probably a tougher, more forceful option but for fleet engagements, the conquest has distinct tactical advantages.  The onslaught is simpler, as low tech ships are ostensibly meant to be, but the conquest can do things the onslaught simply cannot.

I'll agree on the Onslaught being better on sieges despite being quite the insatiable flux hog.
It gets exponentially better with commander skills and officers bringing its overall flux dissipation on par with the entirety of weapons it can field but a stock, non-XIV Onslaught with no officer or any commander skills giving it more OP or even the option of getting 60 vents instead of 50 really, really struggles to properly use all of its weapon mounts without sacrificing a lot in the way of anything else, altough the version with quad Annihalator rocket launcher 1x gauss, 2x Devastator,4xHVDs can do a lot of work.

Conquest on the other hand can just barely be fitted with 2xHurricane Mirv, 2xGauss,1xIon Beam and 2xHVDs and it's simply disgusting against anything that can't move out of the way in time i.e other capitals and stations. It's devastating provided you're ok with the ship losing a lot of its bite after the Hurricane MIRVs run out of ammo, given the fact just scraping by those extra 30 Ordinance Points just to get expanded missile racks is a bit too much to ask for without level 3 Loadout Design.

And that is why I present to you my no-missile, all dakka-pew-pew Conquest without any Loadout Design shenanigans meaning it's stuck at max 50vents/Capacitors and only has 315 Ordinance Points!

I'll have to admit it took me a while to remember how my setup was AND to adjust it without loadout design. I'll advice people getting ticked off by empty weapons slots to NOT look at the following screenshot:

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The only mod-introduced feature of this setup is Automatic Orders allowing me to give it a Timid personality without...you know...using an officer or modifying my fleet doctrine and having my overridden monsters in the rest of my fleet run from a missile only Kite. It will properly stay at a distance while keeping the pressure on with all of its 1200u range weapons (plus ITU) and successfully sniping enemy fighters/missiles while at it too. Here's my weapon groups by the way, quite important for the AI:

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It successfully murders a Gauss/4xAnnihalator/2xHVD/2xMauler Onslaught and most Odissey/Legion variants and still gets its engine block handed to it by a 4tach lance Paragon under AI control.

bah, I went into the refit screen again and made a double hurricane mirv version work without Loadout Design. Had to axe a lot of stuff but it actually cuts thru the same onslaught a lot faster. Enjoy!

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There isn't any good medium missile weapon option to directly link with the Hurricane MIRVs in vanilla so I decied to keep them empty, as much as it bothers me considering the ship already has Expanded Missile racks.

[Megas]

If you're running EMR you're probably better off with MIRV and ECCM. Its only 4 more OP but will hit a LOT harder in terms of killing enemy ships after you shred them of their shields

It costs much more than 4 OP.  Locust is 18 OP, MIRV is 25?  Then multiply by two for two mounts.  ECCM costs additional OP on top of that.  MIRVs and ECCM cost too much OP, much more than Locusts alone.  Without Missile Spec., I do not even think about MIRVs (if I have Locusts available) unless loadout is primarily Gauss Cannons, and only because Locusts have less range than Gauss.  However, I generally avoid Gauss loadouts for various reasons.

I use EMR on anything that relies on missiles (except plasma Apogee due to lack of OP) because missile ammo runs out too quickly, even Locusts.  Any high-tech ship with Sabots?  EMR.  Low-tech ship with Annihilators?  EMR.  Starter Apogee with Locusts but no PC?  EMR.  Conquest with Locusts or any other missile?  EMR.

Also, two Locusts is practically an unavoidable auto-kill against enemy frigates (eats shields, armor, and hull - everything).  Destroyers will be severely hurt too.  Others need armor stripped first, but that is okay.

@ Thaago:  If I can afford Ion Beam, then I can also afford better firepower to kill things faster, or not and let the Conquest attack both sides at the same time without maxing flux too fast (which is nice against a mob of smaller ships).

[Igncom1]

A cheeky AM blaster on the sides is nothing to sniffle at by the way! Midline has some hilarious potential for AM Blasters where they really don't belong!

[Arcagnello]

A cheeky AM blaster on the sides is nothing to sniffle at by the way! Midline has some hilarious potential for AM Blasters where they really don't belong!

Huh, I've never tried that. Do you have any interesting setups involving AM blasters on midline ships to showcase? For science!

If you're running EMR you're probably better off with MIRV and ECCM. Its only 4 more OP but will hit a LOT harder in terms of killing enemy ships after you shred them of their shields

It costs much more than 4 OP.  Locust is 18 OP, MIRV is 25?  Then multiply by two for two mounts.  ECCM costs additional OP on top of that.  MIRVs and ECCM cost too much OP, much more than Locusts alone.  Without Missile Spec., I do not even think about MIRVs (if I have Locusts available) unless loadout is primarily Gauss Cannons, and only because Locusts have less range than Gauss.  However, I generally avoid Gauss loadouts for various reasons.

I use EMR on anything that relies on missiles (except plasma Apogee due to lack of OP) because missile ammo runs out too quickly, even Locusts.  Any high-tech ship with Sabots?  EMR.  Low-tech ship with Annihilators?  EMR.  Starter Apogee with Locusts but no PC?  EMR.  Conquest with Locusts or any other missile?  EMR.

Also, two Locusts is practically an unavoidable auto-kill against enemy frigates (eats shields, armor, and hull - everything).  Destroyers will be severely hurt too.  Others need armor stripped first, but that is okay.

@ Thaago:  If I can afford Ion Beam, then I can also afford better firepower to kill things faster, or not and let the Conquest attack both sides at the same time without maxing flux too fast (which is nice against a mob of smaller ships).

I find EMR to be a premium luxury on anything that does not just spawn into battle just to vomit missiles, probably because it's already been a few campaign when I don't pick Loadout Design. Most of my ships that also use missiles to push their combat prowess as much as possible usually can't afford EMR due to lacking flux dissipation, capacity or important hull mods. ON a campaign run with Loadout Design? Just slap that bad boy on anything using limited ammo missiles.

I've rarely used locusts since I usually deploy smaller ships to deal with smaller enemies while I spec my bigger units to deal with enemy capitals. The only ship I regularly find myself using a Locust is the Griphon since it's a really, really good way to clog enemy point defence and just nuke them with the other missile types while they're overwhelmed.

Ion beam has the best flux/EMP damage ratio in vanilla at 0.5. It's also the only vanilla weapon that can flameout an enemy ship's engines despite said ship giving you the front/having shields raised. It's basically a direct fire Salamander that you can't shoot down provided you've got plenty of kinetic firepower and as people said before it's not only good at preventing the enemy from running away but it's also perfect for preventing the enemy to fire back at you once it starts working, wich is also really good when facing multiple, smaller opponents since they'll get paralyzed and allow the COnquest to face them mostly one by one.

[Goumindong]

its more than 4 OP

Locust x 2 : 36 OP
Expanded Missile Racks: 30 OP
Total: 66 OP

MIRV x 2: 50 OP
ECCM: 20 OP
Total: 70 OP

70-66= 4 OP

2x MIRV is 20 MIRV each doing 5500 HE. 110,000 total HE. Enough to kill 5 onslaughts.

[Megas]

@ Goumindong:  I would not want MIRVs without EMR either.  Without EMR, MIRVs run out too quickly.  AI wastes them like no tomorrow.

Ion beam has the best flux/EMP damage ratio in vanilla at 0.5. It's also the only vanilla weapon that can flameout an enemy ship's engines despite said ship giving you the front/having shields raised. It's basically a direct fire Salamander that you can't shoot down provided you've got plenty of kinetic firepower and as people said before it's not only good at preventing the enemy from running away but it's also perfect for preventing the enemy to fire back at you once it starts working, wich is also really good when facing multiple, smaller opponents since they'll get paralyzed and allow the COnquest to face them mostly one by one.

I already wrote above, Ion Beam does not work fast enough (on something that can make things dead fast).  I tried Ion Beam on Conquest (with 800-900 range ballistics) but was disappointed with the results.  I had better results re-allocating the OP and/or flux elsewhere.

I also do not want AI firing Ion Beam when none of its ballistics are in range.

[Goumindong]

20 is a lot of MIRV. I think it takes 2 minutes to launch the entire compliment of 10 MIRV from a regular launcher that or its 100 seconds. (1 minute 40 seconds). That is a pretty decent amount of time. If you're concerned about duration then 1 MIRV, EMR, ECCM is only 9 more OP for the long duration/less waste version.

I also do not want AI firing Ion Beam when none of its ballistics are in range.

Why? Its not like it costs you anything

[shrek_luigi]

its almost 2021 and modders STILL haven't made the ConSlaught, which is an Onslaught Conquest hybrid, smh my head

[Agalyon]

I think its funny how hotly contested the conquest is, but honestly im glad people are (continuing to) bringing up their grievances and they're being discussed openly. I respect that, can't do that everywhere these days.

To the point, I think ON AVERAGE the conquest is the worst of the three, compared to the paragon and the onslaught. However, I also think it has the highest possible potential, which is why its so hotly debated. At any rate, if I had to die on a single hill it would be if anything, it absolutely isn't consistent. The conquest is a glass cannon that's very hard to pilot and imo, essentially hopeless for the AI to use effectively unless it somehow manages to circle with the broadside correctly without over committing and dying which is extremely rare. Paragons and onslaughts have serious weaknesses that the onslaught doesn't for the most part, but that trade comes with problems that capitals typically don't have, like its infamous fragility. I would go so far as to say the conquest not only has to be minmaxed to even be good at all, but minmaxed in a specific way to really hold its own, that being total asymmetry with mandatory hardened shields and good officer skills. Even considering all this, a single mistake means near instant death, and using all those weapons continually requires some degree of relative safety, which isn't so for an onslaught or paragon.

Maybe the question isn't "is the conquest good" but more "what makes a ship good."

[PapaPetro]

its almost 2021 and modders STILL haven't made the ConSlaught, which is an Onslaught Conquest hybrid, smh my head

Does the Victory-class Battleship from the Ship/Weapon Pack count?

[intrinsic_parity]

its almost 2021 and modders STILL haven't made the ConSlaught, which is an Onslaught Conquest hybrid, smh my head

Does the Victory-class Battleship from the Ship/Weapon Pack count?

That's more of an OnQuest IMO 

[Hiruma Kai]

20 is a lot of MIRV. I think it takes 2 minutes to launch the entire compliment of 10 MIRV from a regular launcher that or its 100 seconds. (1 minute 40 seconds). That is a pretty decent amount of time. If you're concerned about duration then 1 MIRV, EMR, ECCM is only 9 more OP for the long duration/less waste version.

Two minutes is essentially correct.  Refire delay on MIRV is 15 seconds. Assuming you're firing MIRV as often as you can, and have 10 reloads they'll last 135 seconds (9*15).  If you have 20 with EMR, they'll last 285 seconds (19*15).  Of course, being fired like that means a good portion of the time they'll be hitting shields, or alternatively, being shot down by PD.

Locusts have a 8.9 second refire time, with 15 reloads (but a significant fire time of like 5-6 seconds, so it ends up being about 15 seconds between the starts of salvos).  So about 210 seconds of fire, or 435 seconds with EMR.  So roughly about a factor of 3.2 in terms of flux free pressure time if you're comparing ECCM MIRV against EMR Locust.   And while 20 MIRV salvos is 110,000 HE damage, 60 Locust salvos is 480,000 fragmentation damage.

I will note base peak performance time on a Conquest is 600 seconds.  With an officer or player piloting that has Combat Endurance, that can easily hit 750 seconds. 138/750 is 18% of combat time.  435/750 is 58% of combat time.

So, the question is, what size battles are people tending to fight in and what are you using the missiles for.  I've certainly been in end game battles against multiple fleet simultaneously that go long enough to hit CR degradation on capitals.  Most of the game isn't like that, but for some players it is a consideration.  Then there's also the opposition and what you're doing with those missiles. MIRV is not as good against a carrier heavy opposition for example, while locusts will struggle against high armor by themselves.  If you're skipping flak and/or devastators in favor of additional kinetics, the Locusts can fill a valuable anti-fighter role on the Conquest.

Personally, against an Astral + Doom + phase ship fleet, I'd rather have the locusts.  Against a low tech Onslaught + Dominator fleet, I'd rather have the MIRVs - or maybe no missiles depending on how much PD there is.

As far as the Conquest itself, it is a decent ship in my mind.  Build to its strengths and it works fine.  I've used Conquests backed by fast Heron carriers and found them reasonably effective in AI hands.

[Megas]

@ Goumindong:  Two minutes is not enough time in an endgame fight.  (Same problem with Annihilator pods on Onslaught, too.)  I tried no EMR, and MIRVs ran out mid-fight if fired constantly.  Of course, player can control firing, but AI will not - they fire at the earliest opportunity.  Anyway, I tried MIRVs with ECCM again, but I was not too impressed.  MIRVs do not overwhelm defenses, and small ships dodge the payload without much difficulty.  It is alright as a punisher or finisher (or long-range harassment), but as an all-purpose weapon that can be fired willy-nilly like the AI does, it is not very effective at that.

Why? Its not like it costs you anything

That assumes AI Conquest began fighting at zero flux.

I tried ion beam again, and it takes too long for EMP to spark and knockout something, and the damage is negligible.  Also recalled two other reasons why I do not like Ion Beam on Conquest.  1) It cannot always track fast enough when I spin Conquest all over the place and keep ballistics aimed at enemies, and 2) limited OP budget.  If I add Ion Beams, I need to cut something else out (missiles, flux stats, campaign mod) or downgrade my main guns (like Mjolnir down to HAG).  Ion Beams on a symmetrical loadout is not healthy when both sides on Conquest fire long enough.

essentially hopeless for the AI to use effectively unless it somehow manages to circle with the broadside correctly without over committing and dying which is extremely rare.

It helps if the main guns share the same range (maybe within 100 units) and the officer has the proper behavior.  AI can handle medium-range brawler loadouts just fine, at least symmetrical loadouts.  Storm Needler needs Aggressive+.  The only loadouts I had problems with AI are those with Gauss Cannons.  Problems include AI driving beyond Gauss range and unable to fire, AI unable to keep target within Gauss' firing arcs, or driving too close to the enemy (i.e., within range of 900 range ballistics).