Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[intrinsic_parity]

The AI does not use missiles anywhere near efficiently. It will dump 12 harpoons to kill a hound and then have nothing left for the rest of combat. If you have 5 ships with missiles, then all 5 will dump all their missiles at the same ship sometimes when only a few missiles from one ship would have been enough. The AI also uses missiles for hull damage and will continue to fire them until a ship is dead, not just to strip armor. I would guess ~75% of missiles in an AI fleet are not going to hit armor due to PD, overkill, dodging/missing, doing hull damage, shields, fighters etc.

Also the place you really need help stripping armor is capital ships (especially when there are 10+), so analyzing how many destroyers and light cruisers you can kill is sort of missing the point. Normal guns do just fine killing smaller ships unless you mount pure kinetics for some reason.

Also, regarding the gryphon specifically, it is an extreme outlier compared to most ships that can mount missiles with double the missiles and way more mounts. It will also frequently die before it uses all of its missiles because it is slow and defenseless.

In my experience, missiles are good in player hands to quickly kill a few large enemy ships and swing a relatively close fight in your favor, but in a heavily outnumbered fight (multiple ordos in vanilla, maybe some big raids, but way more prevalent in nex/modded games) they don't do enough. Putting them on AI ships will sometimes get kills, but just as often be wasted or used very inefficiently. Missiles are certainly not going to solve all your armor stripping problems, even in moderately sized fights in my experience.

[Megas]

Normal guns do just fine killing smaller ships unless you mount pure kinetics for some reason.

And this is a reason why I would like a good 800+ range medium HE weapon to compliment Heavy AC/Needler, after Heavy Mauler lost too much DPS and became the HE counterpart to HVD.

[Goumindong]

The problem, as I see it, Megas is that I cannot understand what you’re asking for.  If you want to rely on missiles for armor breaking you absolutely can. You will break armor reliably through a fight so long as you don’t dump all you’re missiles into hull. The fact that you use them as finishers and not armor breakers implies missiles are even better than you think they are (otherwise you would not waste them inefficiently when you could just shoot kinetic into hull). The idea that the game could be playable if missiles were very reliable regardless of when you shot them is ludicrous.

So you’re out here saying “missiles are bad because I can only destroy half a lategame fleet with them before having to rely on the other 30 ships in my fleet” and I am astonished.

This is exemplified by the claim there is no good anti-capital HE weapons. If you want good anti-capital level HE the heavy Mauler (Hellbore/HAG) is right there. It’s perfect accuracy, 1000 range and is more efficient against capital armor than a Heavy Mortar, one of the more efficient weapons in the game. The Hellbore is efficient, cheap, and does an absolutely amazing amount of damage to armor

These weapons exist for you to fit them if only you would deign to do so.

[Megas]

If you want to rely on missiles for armor breaking you absolutely can.

Yes... for flagship, and if the enemy is vulnerable.  AI will dump most missiles, especially the likes of Swarmers and Annihilators.  (AI likes to hoard Reapers too much, though.)  That hurts if I swap ships for whatever reason.  Even so, perfect use of missiles is not easy as others said, given how missiles work.

Heavy Mauler does not have perfect accuracy like HVD.  Its low DPS would be more tolerable with perfect accuracy, but sadly, it lacks HVD's perfect accuracy.  Combined with slow fire rate, it makes it mildly difficult to snipe at a pack of swift attackers.

Hellbore is a heavy weapon, which Enforcer and sub-capital midline ships cannot use.  For ships with heavy mounts, I do use Hellbore/HAG/Mjolnir for anti-armor and anti-hull (except Onslaught, in which case, TPCs are used instead to get the job done.)  The ships where I would like a more elite medium HE weapon do not have heavy mounts, and the ones I would use (the midline ships) have few small missile mounts, and getting Expanded Missile Racks would eat too much OP for them.

So you’re out here saying “missiles are bad because I can only destroy half a lategame fleet with them before having to rely on the other 30 ships in my fleet” and I am astonished.

Which is why I prefer simple guns if available.  Heavy Mortar pairs nicely with Railgun, Arbalest, and Storm Needler; and Mauler pairs nicely with HVD.  (Mauler and HVD combo is not good against an advancing beef wall that laughs at low DPS.)  Heavy AC/Needler pairs decently with 900 range heavies, but not all ships with medium mounts have heavy mounts.  800 range kinetics does not always pair well with 1000 range Mauler, depending on ship and AI (not to mention Mauler's low DPS despite being a high-end medium).  800 range kinetics pair better with Heavy Mortar, but reduces range band (to 700) if I want to pressure enemy with all guns, which wastes the kinetics' extra range.

I do not want to use rely on my entire fleet, just what I can deploy on once.  If I need to retreat-and-deploy reinforcements, then I should edge-camp to minimize time to retreat.  Especially if my fleet is weaker for some reason and I do need most of my fleet for multi-round combat.

[FooF]

I thought I posted something but it apparently never took...

We're also forgetting we're getting the Breach SRM next patch. Squarely in the "Not-A-Harpoon" category, it appears to be relatively quick and accurate (though it has spread) and doesn't have the punch of the torpedo variants but may make up for it by being more generally useful. All I have to go off of is the Twitter GIF but 5 missiles at say, 300 HE damage each probably won't hurt capitals much but you may get a lot more ammo than Harpoons (i.e. 10 volleys of 5 each). It wasn't until Alex clarified that the reason we don't have a lot of HE variety (i.e. a HE Heavy AC equivalent) due to the intra-competition with missiles did the Breach make any sense to me. After all, when it comes to armor busting, you want high damage/shot and the Breach is doing the opposite over multiple warheads.

I'm not saying that the Breach replaces a HE Heavy AC equivalent but all of the Medium HE weapons have distinct drawbacks, making room for finishers. The Breach seems to take a different approach and (again, a lot of speculation here) give a non-finisher that should be more reliable than Annihilators but less punchy than Harpoons.

[Alex]

Another couple of points about the Breach, while we're here It does some scripted, armor-ignoring damage to armor - so while the damage is spread out over multiple missiles, that part of it is not reduced from this the way it would normally be. Also, high-tech ships have access to missiles, unlike (generally speaking) ballistics! And while energy slots offer some reasonable armor-breaking options, they are usually inefficient flux-wise, so having an alternative there seems useful.

[Megas]

We're also forgetting we're getting the Breach SRM next patch.

I have not forgotten, but I do not know its stats to know if it will be useful enough.  Assuming Breach is reliable enough, I would like it if the medium version has lots of ammo and long-lasting like Locusts.  So far, Annihilators are my go-to for brawling (for those that cannot use Locusts), but they do not last long enough even with Expanded Missile Racks.  (Locusts are great for all-purpose brawling for most of a fight.)

[Megas]

Another couple of points about the Breach, while we're here It does some scripted, armor-ignoring damage to armor - so while the damage is spread out over multiple missiles, that part of it is not reduced from this the way it would normally be. Also, high-tech ships have access to missiles, unlike (generally speaking) ballistics! And while energy slots offer some reasonable armor-breaking options, they are usually inefficient flux-wise, so having an alternative there seems useful.

I think anti-shield would be a bigger problem for high-tech than anti-armor.  High-tech has some anti-armor options (blasters or plasma cannon), but no good anti-shield options aside from Sabots (or kinetics for Shrike-P, Medusa, and Paragon).  Winning flux war by a large enough margin (against same-size targets) without Sabots or ballistics requires overwhelming flux stats.

[SCC]

High-tech ships using missiles for breaking the hull have to overcome the opportunity cost of getting sabots and heavy blasters/phase lances instead, which is hard.
On topic of Heavy Mauler and HVD: against smaller ships, HVDs are adequate, unless cruisers arer some of those smaller ships. I think only Enforcer in the next update is going to put up a considerable fight, and that's because 900 armour lul.

[Goumindong]

[Heavy Mauler] low DPS would be more tolerable with perfect accuracy

But the heavy Mauler only has low DPS vs non-capital armor. It has good DPS vs capital armor. It’s DPS is higher than a heavy Mortar at armor over 1550... before range, recoil, and accuracy issues all of which advantage the mortar. . After those considerations it absolutely demolished heavier armor much much faster than Mortars despite mortars having 220 paper dps vs the 133 of a Mauler.   

Vs 1000 armor a heavy mortar, assuming every shot hits) is doing about 39.7 dps to 1000 armor. A Mauler is doing 38 DPS...

Which makes it the medium slot ballistic you seem to want for capital armor. But you refuse to use it because? 

[Goumindong]

High-tech ships using missiles for breaking the hull have to overcome the opportunity cost of getting sabots and heavy blasters/phase lances instead, which is hard.
On topic of Heavy Mauler and HVD: against smaller ships, HVDs are adequate, unless cruisers arer some of those smaller ships. I think only Enforcer in the next update is going to put up a considerable fight, and that's because 900 armour lul.

This I agree with. The armor penetrating efficiency of energy weapons tends to be relatively better than its shield penetrating ability.

Vs 1000 armor a Mauler has an efficiency of .506. A HB has an efficiency of .23. Which isn’t amazing. But it’s also good vs hull.  But a pulse laser has an efficiency of .909 vs shields while a Needler has an efficiency of 2.5. The HB is comparatively efficient (Vs a system where efficiency isn’t quite the most important nature of the beast)

[pairedeciseaux]

High-tech ships from Wolf to Aurora being highly mobile, have a superior ability to put torpedoes to good use. I'd say for those ships missiles are effective-but-not-100%-reliable-flux-free damage dealers, whether against armor, hull, or even shield! Having a 1-OP single Hammer in a Wolf is often very usefull for many purposes.

Spoiler

Put four 2-OP Hammers in an Enforcer and you have a very respectable firepower in addition to medium ballistic guns, whether using mortars or maulers.

Likewise in an Aurora I am likely to use torpedoes on the small front hardpoints.

Want more punch? Use 2-OP Reapers instead of Hammer.

Want more ammo? Use 4-OP Harpoons/Annihilators instead of Hammer.

Want guided torpedo-level-damage warheads with ability to fly over allies? Use 2-OP or 4-OP Atropos.

[close]

Missiles, as a flux-free firepower, are a limited resource and are not 100% reliable. Armor is a limited resource, and so is hull. Sounds fair, doesn't it?

( enough has been said about mortars vs maulers, I'm not going the throw more fuel into that fire  )

[Megas]

Which makes it the medium slot ballistic you seem to want for capital armor. But you refuse to use it because?

I do not want another HE gun specifically against capital armor.  I only want an 800 (or 900 or even 750) range medium HE that is easy-to-use (faster firing and better DPS than Mauler, faster shots and easier to use than Heavy Mortar) against a wide variety of targets, small and large alike, armored or not, and to have a medium HE gun that feels like an actual upgrade over Heavy Mortar like Heavy AC/Needler are for Arbalest.  Mauler feels more like a downgrade from or sidegrade to Mortar unless I want to snipe at stuff beyond 800 range with Mauler and HVD combo.  I wrote it before, Mortar is great when paired with 700 kinetics, and Mauler is great with HVD.  There are multiple heavy options with 900 range to pair with Mark IX (although non-Conquest ships have difficulty with the high-end stuff).  Even HMG has the Assault Chaingun to compliment it (450? range)!  The one range where it is a pain is 800 kinetics, especially for ships that cannot use large ballistics.  If such a ship uses Mortars, their optimal attack range is 700.  If ship uses Mauler while kinetics are 800 range, then optimal attack range is 800, and the Mauler fires slow, which is not good against a mob of fast small stuff, plus Mauler alone (instead of Mauler and kinetics) does squat against shields.  I do use Mauler sometimes on non-disposable Eagles with 800 range kinetics because its center hardpoint is behind the hardpoints adjacent to it.

I do not use Mauler on many ships because 1) range band mismatch with kinetics aside from HVD, 2) slow and inaccurate against some targets, 3) lower DPS overall, 4) sometimes, availability (Mortars are everywhere; Mauler, not so much until endgame when I have Mauler blueprint and Orbital Works).  Yes, Mauler is better against strong armor, but that is not the only thing I want HE for.  I do want HE for fighters and smaller targets too, especially if I use needlers for kinetics.  (Aside, I use Devastators instead of Hellbore on Onslaughts' flanks because small fast flankers dodge Hellbore easily while Devastator catches and murders them.)

I use Mauler on ships with sniper loadouts, such as ships with HVDs or Gauss (and, sometimes, on Eagle due to mount placement).  I do not use those loadouts often because an advancing beef wall shrugs off the low DPS of HVD and Mauler more easily than somewhat shorter-ranged weapons with more DPS.  (I do not like Gauss Conquest - it is annoying for me to use and the AI has difficulty using it.)