Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Starsector 0.95a is out! (03/26/21); Blog post: Skill Changes, Part 2 (07/15/21)

Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8]

Author Topic: Midline Capital Brainstorming  (Read 5314 times)

Goumindong

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1488
    • View Profile
Re: Midline Capital Brainstorming
« Reply #105 on: October 28, 2020, 03:40:30 PM »

Well. The hegemony uses some "mid-tech" in their doctrine(falcons, gryphons). There is overlap there. But there isn't overlap the other way. So less of an issue really. Cruiser school is pre-collapse after all
Logged

CoverdInBees

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 47
    • View Profile
Re: Midline Capital Brainstorming
« Reply #106 on: October 28, 2020, 03:48:42 PM »

Since most people seem to tend to something that is a bit jack-of-all-trades-ey (including the "command ship" proposals), what do you all think of something akin to the Tyrant from Vayra's sector?

I don't generally tend to like mod ships (or weapons) and my playthroughs with the various mods i've tried didn't tend to last long but this ship was an exception. 2 fighter bays, iirc 3 overlapping big turrets/hardpoints (ballistics and iirc a composite), reasonably nimble for a capital, not bad but not great in most other stats.
Basically a light-ish battleship, but heavier than a battle cruiser. IDK if it's classified as midline in the mod but it definetly feels pretty midline.
Logged

FooF

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Midline Capital Brainstorming
« Reply #107 on: October 28, 2020, 07:54:57 PM »

Another suggestion:

Super Brawler flying wing. Built around the Dampener Field and the aforementioned 0-flux boost hullmod. 40 DP, roughly equivalent stats to a Conquest (tad slower, tad more armored, slightly worse flux stats, 8 burn). Would be more of an anvil and much harder target that draws fire but doesn't have that much more firepower than a Conquest. Trades maneuverability for being a damage sponge. Much more straightforward than a Conquest, though, and much less vulnerable from the rear relative to its Low-Tech counterparts. Shields would be like an Eagle in coverage. 1 Large Missile (hardpoint) flanked by 2 Large Universal turrets. 2 Small Universals would also face forward for whatever role you want them as. 2 Medium Ballistics toward the tips would provide near 360 degree coverage. 4 Small Hybrid in the back give some protection (more mounts could be added here). Finally, 2 Medium Missile and a single Fighter bay give some versatility.

Basically, the other side of the coin of the Conquest: still hits pretty hard with good-not-great flux stats but can't escape. Just weathers the storm. Kind of a balance between offense and defense but not particularly great at either. Very versatile, though. Mounts and whatnot up for debate.

Logged

DatonKallandor

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 710
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Midline Capital Brainstorming
« Reply #108 on: October 29, 2020, 07:17:53 PM »

Only problem is targeting, shields and collision avoidance gets weird when you have ships with an extreme shape like that.
Logged

TaLaR

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2545
    • View Profile
Re: Midline Capital Brainstorming
« Reply #109 on: October 30, 2020, 04:07:58 AM »

Yeah, the less circular a ship is, the more wonky it's in combat.
At some point a Conquest was near immune to Devastator shots from side because they proximity triggered too far from actual hull (and even now shooting Conquest's side is very inefficient).
Logged

FooF

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Midline Capital Brainstorming
« Reply #110 on: October 31, 2020, 07:25:06 AM »

The shape of the ship notwithstanding (which is never final anyway), does the overall purpose/design of the ship make sense? I.e. Damper Field on a Capital with decent firepower? I know that Damper Field, prior to being nerfed on the Mora, was considered...annoying...to fight previously. Would a Capital ship with even more armor and HP, and much more offensive firepower be OP or just be a slog to fight? Or, is an anvil for Midline a specialization worth pursuing?

If not the Damper Field specifically (though it makes a lot sense to me: why reinvent the wheel?), a defensive system paired with good firepower screams "generalist" to me. Of course, this is predicated on the boost to 0-flux boost hullmod, otherwise the ship would be too slow to be "fun." (I can't remember, does Damper Field generate flux to use? If it didn't, and the new 0-flux boost is dependent on not generating flux, you could use Damper Field to activate the speed increase. That's a weird mobility/defensive maneuver but I kind of like it, if in fact it works).
Logged

Tartiflette

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3293
  • Toss a coin to your Modder, O' valley of plenty
    • View Profile
Re: Midline Capital Brainstorming
« Reply #111 on: October 31, 2020, 07:50:11 AM »

Torchships and Deadly Armaments finally got its midline capital. I went for a Battle-carrier design, presented as a compromise between the "cruiser school" and the old "ship-of-the-line" strategies. It is reasonably quick on its feet and more than decently armed (5 fighter decks, 1 large ballistic turret, 1 large missile hardpoint, 3 medium energy turrets, 2 medium ballistic turrets all converging to the front, and a bunch of small hybrid turrets for defenses) but it is quite brittle and requires an escort to not get overrun by small ships. Overall it's an overgrown Heron that isn't as infuriating to catch.


I feel that a proper battleship might be a tad out of line for midline, so if they should get a second non-carrier capital ship I would go for a "fleet enhancing" one. Something that is a great support for wolf packs of Hammerheads and Eagles: missile heavy, built-in ECM and Nav hullmods, and finaly either a single large mount weapon with a wide arc or a cluster of medium ballistic ones.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2020, 09:32:17 AM by Tartiflette »
Logged
 

FooF

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Midline Capital Brainstorming
« Reply #112 on: October 31, 2020, 09:13:54 AM »

That's a good looking ship, Tartiflette! What's the ship system?

(Also, re: the earlier Flying Wing design: surely it's no wider than the Battle Wall from the same mod. I presume it works, right...? :) )
Logged

dauntasa

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 7
    • View Profile
Re: Midline Capital Brainstorming
« Reply #113 on: November 01, 2020, 12:53:47 PM »

If "command ship" is one of the archetypes that people want, I've got an (possibly bad!) idea.

Now that player fleet size is a soft-cap, you could have a ship with a built-in hullmod that increases the fleet-size cap but also force deploys it into every fight and prevents reinforcement(and maybe provides some other fleetwide debuffs) if it's retreated or destroyed. Call it the Fleet Coordination Supercomputer or something along those lines. It could also passively provide small situational buffs to ships which are given orders(slightly increased speed for ships given the retreat command, increased shield efficiency for escorts, etc.) to give it more of a command ship feeling.

As for the ship itself, I'd say that a durable but undergunned capital would be appropriate, so that it doesn't need constant babysitting but also wouldn't want to be on the front line and would be in serious trouble if it found itself up against an enemy capital or a group. Something that needs backup but can also live long enough to get it.
Logged

Amazigh

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 126
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Midline Capital Brainstorming
« Reply #114 on: November 02, 2020, 12:13:17 PM »

An idea for a ship system that'd (imo) really sell the "command ship" vibe:
Sensor Relay (better name pending)
All allied ships including this ship within 1000su Gain a +40%/+30%/+20%/+10% range bonus based on hull size.
Generates soft flux while active based on the number of ships affected.

I'm thinking that it would work best as a togglable ability with no duration, the flux cost would act as the limiting/balancing factor.
The flux generation would mean that if you use this system when surrounded by a whole bunch of allies, then you'll potentially not be able to fire your own weapons by merit of the flux that you'd be generating by buffing all your allies, but in exchange all your buffed allies would be able to deal damage more reliably.
This is a system that shines best when you are being supported by smaller ships, as the smaller a ship is the bigger range buff that it will receive, thus allowing frigates/destroyers to more safely engage cruisers/capitals. Truly something that fits the "personality" of a Command Ship.
And as it is self affecting, even operating solo this ability would act as a minor range buff in exchange for a minor flux drain.
The range of the buff is something i'm unsure on, i put 1000 as a placeholder, as it seems like it might be enough, but a longer range might be required for this to be a good system that's worth using.


For a ship to mount this on, in terms of weapons i'm thinking:
1-2 Large Ballistic turrets (to give it some solid long reaching direct firepower)
4? medium energy/ballistic turrets. (at least 2 of these set with wide arcs, to make them appealing as PD mounts)
1-2 Large Missile Hardpoints and 4? medium missile hardpoints/turrets (as the ship may be using a lot of flux keeping its ship system online, having a solid selection of missile mounts to fall back on would make sense)
6-8? Hybrid? Turrets (arrayed to give wide PD coverage, but not well oriented for use as frontal weaponry)

So overall, somewhat passable ballistic/energy direct fire capability, but somewhat slanted towards missiles for as it's main offense.
Logged

Retry

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 406
    • View Profile
Re: Midline Capital Brainstorming
« Reply #115 on: November 03, 2020, 03:43:25 PM »

Potentially terrible idea: Have absolutely no missile slots on the Command Ship and generally limited firepower, but give it Quantum Disruptor (like on the Harbinger).  No missiles to fully exploit the one-second vulnerability gap it can create, but with others in its fleet, especially those with a good chunk of missile slots themselves (like a Gryphon, or a Conquest), can make massive holes with that opening.

Also would have a secondary function as a sort of anti-Phase cap, since Quantum Disruptor can pull them out of Phase.  It'd be nice to have an anti-phase ship that isn't itself a phase ship.
Logged

FooF

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Midline Capital Brainstorming
« Reply #116 on: November 03, 2020, 04:20:03 PM »

Potentially terrible idea: Have absolutely no missile slots on the Command Ship and generally limited firepower, but give it Quantum Disruptor (like on the Harbinger).  No missiles to fully exploit the one-second vulnerability gap it can create, but with others in its fleet, especially those with a good chunk of missile slots themselves (like a Gryphon, or a Conquest), can make massive holes with that opening.

Also would have a secondary function as a sort of anti-Phase cap, since Quantum Disruptor can pull them out of Phase.  It'd be nice to have an anti-phase ship that isn't itself a phase ship.

The only thing I don't particularly like about this (and was a problem with my original ship system idea) is that I don't think it would be particularly fun to be able to create an opening for allied ships that a.) may or may not be there, b.) may or may not have an AI that recognizes the opening and/or, c.) have a capital-grade ship be almost completely reliant on support to get kills.

If we're spending the credits, logistics, and DP to field a capital (especially with the new fleet-weightings next patch), I think it should stand to reason that an expensive ship that can create openings like that ought to also be able to capitalize on them: i.e. it isn't terribly undergunned relative to its equal weight in DP. If we had a command ship of 40 DP, I'm not saying it should be the equivalent of a Conquest in firepower but it should have other attributes that make it roughly equivalent. Also remember that if a capital ship has a Quantum Disrupter-esque system, it doesn't have a mobility system, defensive system, fighter system, etc. It's going to be a sitting duck in most circumstances so a Quantum Disruptor, in addition to its own firepower, needs to give it some kind edge over the other capitals that can turtle up, burn drive/maneuvering jet out, etc. A ship with that kind of system will have to be either naturally tough, naturally fast, or naturally hard-hitting so it can punch its way out. Otherwise, it would simply be too vulnerable and not "worth it" to field.

Logged

Retry

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 406
    • View Profile
Re: Midline Capital Brainstorming
« Reply #117 on: November 03, 2020, 09:00:16 PM »

Potentially terrible idea: Have absolutely no missile slots on the Command Ship and generally limited firepower, but give it Quantum Disruptor (like on the Harbinger).  No missiles to fully exploit the one-second vulnerability gap it can create, but with others in its fleet, especially those with a good chunk of missile slots themselves (like a Gryphon, or a Conquest), can make massive holes with that opening.

Also would have a secondary function as a sort of anti-Phase cap, since Quantum Disruptor can pull them out of Phase.  It'd be nice to have an anti-phase ship that isn't itself a phase ship.

The only thing I don't particularly like about this (and was a problem with my original ship system idea) is that I don't think it would be particularly fun to be able to create an opening for allied ships that a.) may or may not be there, b.) may or may not have an AI that recognizes the opening and/or, c.) have a capital-grade ship be almost completely reliant on support to get kills.
We'll probably not agree on this case; that sort of ship sounds both unique and fun for me.  Given that I often play with fairly sizeable battle sizes (and wouldn't really deploy capital-grade ships if the opposing fleet was trivially small), A and C aren't really a problem for me.  (On B, think you have the order flipped here, AI seems trigger-happy enough that you can kinda pick "when" to disrupt such that their outgoing fire has the greatest effect.  The time frame is a bit narrow for the ships to fire after the disruption, in general)

While I'm fine with the big lone front-liner type of gameplay for a short while, I much prefer supporting roles.  There's not many Starsector ships that do that.  Monitor, kinda-sorta, if you consider Fortress Shield trolling as a support role at least.  Pure carriers?  Eh, slightly closer than lineships, but fighters are more like very long-ranged weapons than support, especially Bombers.

Basically, yeah, I realize you don't care too much for support roles.  As such, you will not find a more support-oriented ship to be fun for yourself.  However, consider that most of roster is already well-stocked with ships well-suited for frontline non-support playstyles of all sorts of variations.  In Capitals alone, there's the Onslaught, Paragon, Legion, Conquest and Odyssey.  Maybe the Pirate and LP Capitals count too, if you're fine with low-end converted logistics warships.

If the goal was to make a ship that was fun for FooF, it'd be a failure, yes.  But I don't think the goal should be to have every ship be enjoyable for every person, and I don't think that's actually achievable anyways.  More important, I think, is that every player have at least some ships that appeal to their playstyle.  As such, I believe that the game as a whole would benefit more from a support-oriented ship than another frontline duel-oriented "racehorse", if that makes sense.

If we're spending the credits, logistics, and DP to field a capital (especially with the new fleet-weightings next patch), I think it should stand to reason that an expensive ship that can create openings like that ought to also be able to capitalize on them: i.e. it isn't terribly undergunned relative to its equal weight in DP. If we had a command ship of 40 DP, I'm not saying it should be the equivalent of a Conquest in firepower but it should have other attributes that make it roughly equivalent. Also remember that if a capital ship has a Quantum Disrupter-esque system, it doesn't have a mobility system, defensive system, fighter system, etc. It's going to be a sitting duck in most circumstances so a Quantum Disruptor, in addition to its own firepower, needs to give it some kind edge over the other capitals that can turtle up, burn drive/maneuvering jet out, etc. A ship with that kind of system will have to be either naturally tough, naturally fast, or naturally hard-hitting so it can punch its way out. Otherwise, it would simply be too vulnerable and not "worth it" to field.
I was attempting to be conservative in my suggestion.  The reason I prefaced it with "potentially a terrible idea" is because giving another ship the Quantum Disruptor ship system comes with a lot of implications.

(I'm thinking of a fairly swift battlecruiser with at least 2 Large Mounts + smaller guns, if it helps.)

Specifically, this part:
Quote
Also remember that if a capital ship has a Quantum Disrupter-esque system, it doesn't have a mobility system, defensive system, fighter system, etc. It's going to be a sitting duck in most circumstances so a Quantum Disruptor, in addition to its own firepower, needs to give it some kind edge over the other capitals that can turtle up, burn drive/maneuvering jet out, etc.
I think you're severely under-estimating the utility of the Quantum Disruptor here.  It isn't a mobility system, it's an anti-mobility system.  In the right circumstances it is a defensive system.  In the right circumstances it's also an offensive system.

Onslaught burn driving straight at you?  *zap*, burn drive's gone and you can quickly slink away.  Two Onslaughts burn-driving towards you?  *zap* the further one and help your fleet eat at the poor Battleship you've stranded.  Conquest or a cruiser with Maneuvering/Plasma Jets trying to run away?  *Zap*, they just lost their ship system and you'll have them in your sights for quite a bit longer.

Got something with Accelerated Ammo Feeders or High Energy Focus with their sights on you?  *zap*, they not only lost their focus, but you have a second of breathing room (in addition to no-shield striking room).  The Time-Shifting ability ship (or ships, in modded) going berserk?  Same thing.

Fully-shielding paragon getting on your nerves, or really any large ship with huge shield arcs?  *zap*, they're now not only completely vulnerable for a full second, they have to spend quite a bit of time to get their shields back up, and will be vulnerable to anything on the flanks in the meantime.  Notice an air wing going for a bombing run?  *Zap* the target just before the missiles reach the shields.  Same thing, but the target just activated a damper field?  It matters not, *zap* the field away.

Quantum Disruptor is potentially an extremely flexible and powerful ship system.  That's why I specifically said no to missiles, and why I thinkthe weapons should be kept conservative on the first draft if the "cap with Disruptor" thing is to be pursued: being able to force its own Reaper Torpedos or Hurricane MIRV (or even "just" a Tachyon Lance burst) seems unlikely to be balanced.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8]