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Starsector 0.95a is out! (03/26/21); Blog post: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts (09/24/21)

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Author Topic: Finer weapon control without needing more weapon groups  (Read 1935 times)

Alex

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Re: Finer weapon control without needing more weapon groups
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2020, 02:18:25 PM »

Using magic numbers instead of a constant? Shame!

I'm pretty sure the rules are that if I admit to doing something embarrassing in code, you don't immediately shame me for it! I mean, I already know it's bad :)

Gothars is hardly the only one asking for this... I am happy to see more weapon groups.

Yeah, but - need someone handy to blame!

But anyway, is there going to be a tooltip explaining that you need to press the weapon group to change it from linked to alternating and vice versa? I've seen a couple of people asking about that.

It's explained in the column heading tooltip, yeah. And the alternating/linked behavior specifics are elaborated on. Basically, a lot of tooltips everywhere there.

Also, are you touching upon weapon group related combat UI? If so, it would be nice if unselected groups showed only their autofire status and only the selected group showed the weapons.

Not touching it this time around, no. (If they only show autofire status, then it seems like it'd be a pain to select the right group sometimes, unless you have it memorized... still, yeah, it could use to be cut down somehow. Maybe a few weapon icons for the most-numerous weapon in the group, arranged horizontally for all the non-selected groups, or some such. Meaning to look at this at some point!)
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Morrokain

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Re: Finer weapon control without needing more weapon groups
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2020, 02:25:52 PM »

Whoa! Thanks Alex!  :)
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Grievous69

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Re: Finer weapon control without needing more weapon groups
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2020, 02:27:28 PM »

This just shows that Alex is the ultimate troll. Thread after thread asking for more groups, nothing, here comes Gothars proposing a solution WITHOUT adding groups, and kaboom we get 2 more. Truly the work of an evil mastermind.

Just kidding btw, reaaaaly appreciate the huge QoL change, plus the redesign of UI. (It's painful having to play the cirrent version when so much great QoL stuff has been already implemented.)
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SafariJohn

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Re: Finer weapon control without needing more weapon groups
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2020, 02:38:03 PM »

Using magic numbers instead of a constant? Shame!

I'm pretty sure the rules are that if I admit to doing something embarrassing in code, you don't immediately shame me for it! I mean, I already know it's bad :)

I mean, I just changed some vars on a whim from private to public static and blew saves, so... :-X
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CoverdInBees

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Re: Finer weapon control without needing more weapon groups
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2020, 02:53:00 PM »

Yay.

It might look like a small change (for the amount of work it cost you) but since this mostly affects "end game" ships like the direct combat capitals i think this improvement might be a lot bigger than it appears at first glance.
(Could feel really restrictive to outfit or pilot them, made worse because the restriction was artificial.)
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Gothars

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Re: Finer weapon control without needing more weapon groups
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2020, 03:05:11 PM »

you should probably blame Gothars.

I'll take it ;D


e/ And just to immediately dispel any potential illusion that ...certain elements of the community will ever be satisfied and stop trying to make Starsector better: While you are working on it, how about a toggle in that UI to make a group fire directly when selected? That also comes up since, like, 2011^^"

« Last Edit: November 01, 2020, 03:16:04 PM by Gothars »
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Alex

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Re: Finer weapon control without needing more weapon groups
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2020, 06:13:09 PM »

This just shows that Alex is the ultimate troll. Thread after thread asking for more groups, nothing, here comes Gothars proposing a solution WITHOUT adding groups, and kaboom we get 2 more. Truly the work of an evil mastermind.

Just kidding btw, reaaaaly appreciate the huge QoL change, plus the redesign of UI. (It's painful having to play the cirrent version when so much great QoL stuff has been already implemented.)

:D (Also, sorry! I can totally see how that'd be.)


I mean, I just changed some vars on a whim from private to public static and blew saves, so... :-X

(So long as it's not "final", those are like a giant middle finger to future you...)


Yay.

It might look like a small change (for the amount of work it cost you) but since this mostly affects "end game" ships like the direct combat capitals i think this improvement might be a lot bigger than it appears at first glance.
(Could feel really restrictive to outfit or pilot them, made worse because the restriction was artificial.)

*thumbs up* I'm happy with the change - and especially with bringing the weapon groups dialog UI up to what the new standard/look and feel is - just had to happen at the right time!


e/ And just to immediately dispel any potential illusion that ...certain elements of the community will ever be satisfied and stop trying to make Starsector better: While you are working on it, how about a toggle in that UI to make a group fire directly when selected? That also comes up since, like, 2011^^"

Hah! That's actually a good bit more unclear. How does the AI handle it? If it just ignores it - which, after all, it can use alternating groups pretty well, so it doesn't really care - then it feels like it's breaking the rules as far as using a ship in a way the player couldn't. Also, how does this interact with linked/alternating? Sometimes you'd want all missiles to fire, sometimes one. But if it's alternating, you couldn't switch to another missile, so that's potentially awkward. (But, ok, that could only be a useful thing for mono-weapon-groups.) Still, you'd probably need "select-fire-linked" and "select-fire-alternating" modes. But then, how do you see how much ammo is left if you can't select the group? It's just a huge can of worms on a lot of fronts.

Having a separate bind to insta-fire a given group gets around these problems, though... but then the question is, what binds would be ergonomic? Pretty much everything around WASD is already taken, and you'd really want this to be super easy to access. Even if you, say, decide that only two groups - 1 and 2 - get "quick fire" binds, still not sure what that'd be. Something like Alt-<group number> is awkward enough that I think it defeats the purpose. Q or E I think would be ideal, feel-wise, but then strafe left/right would need to move somewhere...
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SonnaBanana

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Re: Finer weapon control without needing more weapon groups
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2020, 08:25:07 PM »

Woah, this is akin to Story Points and Personal Contacts in significance.
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Carabus

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Re: Finer weapon control without needing more weapon groups
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2020, 09:35:15 PM »

Having a separate bind to insta-fire a given group gets around these problems, though... but then the question is, what binds would be ergonomic? Pretty much everything around WASD is already taken, and you'd really want this to be super easy to access. Even if you, say, decide that only two groups - 1 and 2 - get "quick fire" binds, still not sure what that'd be. Something like Alt-<group number> is awkward enough that I think it defeats the purpose. Q or E I think would be ideal, feel-wise, but then strafe left/right would need to move somewhere...

If you limit it to just two groups, then 8 and 9 keys could be used.
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RustyCabbage

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Re: Finer weapon control without needing more weapon groups
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2020, 11:46:40 PM »

Whoa, a hotkey for auto-assigning weapon groups, too--sweet!

(On the topic of hotkeys - is there any possibility of adding some for adding/removing caps and vents (something like C and V while shifting the autofit hotkey to F would be soo nice)

pairedeciseaux

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Re: Finer weapon control without needing more weapon groups
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2020, 11:49:45 PM »

Seven weapon groups in next release? Good news! :) I'll immediately start thinking about new loadouts for the larger player-controlled ships.
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Gothars

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Re: Finer weapon control without needing more weapon groups
« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2020, 07:13:59 AM »

Also, how does this interact with linked/alternating? Sometimes you'd want all missiles to fire, sometimes one. But if it's alternating, you couldn't switch to another missile, so that's potentially awkward.

But then, how do you see how much ammo is left if you can't select the group?

Something like Alt-<group number> is awkward enough that I think it defeats the purpose


Not if you use its  in reverse - hit Alt-<group number> to navigate within a direct fire group, and at the same time see group ammo and the range and firing arc of individual weapons. Hit only <group number> to fire the selected weapon in that group and switch to the next. That way you have the action that takes time to do on the key combo that takes time to press, and the fast action on the fast key.

(I was about to suggest the reverse behavior for non-directfire groups, but it's probably better to never fire anything while having alt pressed, otherwise there would be accidental discharges due to the group number next to a direct fire one being alt-pressed.)

Still, you'd probably need "select-fire-linked" and "select-fire-alternating" modes.

In so far as you can set it to those conditions with individual toggles, yeah. But I'd keep the linked /alternating toggle as it is and add a row under "start with autofire". Like this (ignore the typo pls):




How does the AI handle it? If it just ignores it - which, after all, it can use alternating groups pretty well, so it doesn't really care - then it feels like it's breaking the rules as far as using a ship in a way the player couldn't.

The AI can (apparently) already instantly fire weapon groups by switching really quick, so, if anything, I'd see this as leveling the playing field.

« Last Edit: November 02, 2020, 07:41:51 AM by Gothars »
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Megas

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Re: Finer weapon control without needing more weapon groups
« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2020, 09:20:11 AM »

Nice for the extra weapon groups update.  Outfitting Apogee and (especially) Onslaught will be less of a pain.  I doubt I would use more than six, so I can at least use 7 as the "empty" group when I want to deselect all groups.
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Alex

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Re: Finer weapon control without needing more weapon groups
« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2020, 05:03:40 PM »

Not if you use its  in reverse - hit Alt-<group number> to navigate within a direct fire group, and at the same time see group ammo and the range and firing arc of individual weapons. Hit only <group number> to fire the selected weapon in that group and switch to the next. That way you have the action that takes time to do on the key combo that takes time to press, and the fast action on the fast key.

Hmm... that does seem fairly workable overall; let me think on it!

The AI can (apparently) already instantly fire weapon groups by switching really quick, so, if anything, I'd see this as leveling the playing field.

IIRC it's not *that* fast with swap-firing-switching back - where it has the edge is in selecting the right weapon from an alternating group. So I think it might still need tweaking.
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Schwartz

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Re: Finer weapon control without needing more weapon groups
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2020, 01:48:57 AM »

Please don't make AI weapon switching slower. If anything, I think it should be as instant as possible. The player gets pause mode to do all his switching if he cares to optimize. When I watch AI in the simulator, I see plenty of time wasted with switching weapon groups and leaving weapon groups off when they should not be. The problem has never been that AI shoots too much, if you know what I mean. ;)

Gothars, where do you see the AI doing this instantaneously? When I watch it, it's always pretty much human-level slow especially with turning groups on again after they were turned off.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2020, 01:51:08 AM by Schwartz »
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