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Author Topic: Civilian Grade Hull and Militarized Subsystems  (Read 2523 times)

intrinsic_parity

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Civilian Grade Hull and Militarized Subsystems
« on: October 27, 2020, 12:55:10 PM »

I don't think the civilian grade hull hullmod really does anything positive for gameplay. You pretty much always need to have militarized subsystems on any civilian ship because the penalties are too severe. It seems like most civilian ships have a base burn 1 lower than their class (buffalo has 8 burn which is cruiser burn etc.), and because of the fleet cap, you almost always have freighters and tankers that are the same size as your largest ships, so the sensor penalties and speed penalties are enormous (and nearly impossible to correct via other means) if you don't use the hullmod. It ends up just being an OP tax rather than a decision. Maybe the intent is to ensure that civilian ships are only able to use one logistic hullmod? But I feel like that could be done directly instead of creating a possible trap for inexperienced players.

So I guess that is my initial suggestion: just make the civilian grade hull reduce the number of logistic hullmod slots by one and remove the militarized subsystem hullmod. There's probably a better way to make the system more interesting though, so I'd like to hear other thoughts.
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Alex

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Re: Civilian Grade Hull and Militarized Subsystems
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2020, 01:39:06 PM »

Hmm - I don't think the penalties from civgrade are nearly that bad. Especially if it's a smaller ship in a larger fleet, you often don't need +1 burn and the sensor penalties don't matter. Alternatively, you can put Augmented Drive Field on larger ships to get its burn up to par, and Efficiency Overhaul or a capacity-expander may be worth more that Militarized Subsystems, depending on how you feel about the sensor penalty. Or you might go for ADF and MS for maximum burn. I'm really not seeing it as being that clear-cut! Especially considering that MS increases the cost of running the ship.
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SCC

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Re: Civilian Grade Hull and Militarized Subsystems
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2020, 01:44:05 PM »

Since I get the biggest logistical ships that won't slow me down, only Shepherds could get by without taking MS or IEA, and I put those on them out of habit anyway. Sensor penalties are unacceptable on spreadsheet ships, it's easy enough to find a replacement.

Gothars

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Re: Civilian Grade Hull and Militarized Subsystems
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2020, 01:59:59 PM »

I only bother with MS when I run a lean fleet and they would slow it down. Other times I go either for extended storage, or if I play iron man, things that help my fleet escape like nav bouy and unstable injector.
I will probably use it more if raiding becomes more interesting, to keep the sensor profile of my raiding fleet small. On the other hand my logistics ships may become more viable in combat with the new skills and hullmods, so maybe those become my go to.
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FooF

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Re: Civilian Grade Hull and Militarized Subsystems
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2020, 03:03:44 PM »

Chalk me up as a person who puts MS on every civilian ship in my fleet. I probably could swap it out once the burn bonus is no longer relevant but I usually never get around to it. The decrease in maintenance is trivial but I like seeing those numbers go down whereas the increase in crew requirement is such a small price to pay that I consider it meaningless.

The only thing I see MS doing is being an opportunity cost. It uses up a Logistics Hullmod where I could probably use something else in there, perhaps more beneficial. However, when I first start a run, every civilian ship gets MS on principle.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Civilian Grade Hull and Militarized Subsystems
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2020, 03:46:37 PM »

Hmm - I don't think the penalties from civgrade are nearly that bad. Especially if it's a smaller ship in a larger fleet, you often don't need +1 burn and the sensor penalties don't matter. Alternatively, you can put Augmented Drive Field on larger ships to get its burn up to par, and Efficiency Overhaul or a capacity-expander may be worth more that Militarized Subsystems, depending on how you feel about the sensor penalty. Or you might go for ADF and MS for maximum burn. I'm really not seeing it as being that clear-cut! Especially considering that MS increases the cost of running the ship.
I don't think it's really an alternative to use augmented drive field or insulated engine assembly to cancel the penalties of civilian hull because those both also cost a logistic hull mod slot. It's the same issue where you have to lose logistics slots to cancel the penalties.

My logistic ships are almost always the largest ships in my fleet because otherwise I am wasting fleet slots on logistic ships that don't contribute to combat (or at least much less) and don't improve my logistic capability when compared to the larger ships. Like the buffalo has less cargo per supply cost and cargo per fuel cost and requires more fleet slots for the same cargo (with or without expanded cargo holds) than the colossus, so why would I use buffalos? The only reason for using smaller logistics ships is burn level and sensor profile. If I can tolerate a worse sensor profile and burn speed from not having MS on a small ship, then I will just use bigger logistics ships with MS (and probably augmented drive field) which perform better in almost every other metric. Basically, I don't think using smaller civilian ships in a larger fleet makes a lot of sense when the bigger civilian ships are just better overall for the fleet.

Maybe this is more an argument for buffs for small logistic ships, but I think the fleet cap issue will always still push the player towards big logistics ships.

Also the effect of those decisions on smaller ships matter a lot less. By the time that my fleet is big enough where MS on a shepherd or buffalo wouldn't matter, my running costs have increase enough that using something else doesn't matter either. My 300 supply per month fleet of cruisers couldn't care less about the .6 supply per month savings of putting efficiency overhaul on a shepherd.

Maybe I just value sensor profile and burn speed too highly, but it really never seems like an interesting decision to me based on the logical points to transition to larger supply ships.
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Alex

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Re: Civilian Grade Hull and Militarized Subsystems
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2020, 04:30:03 PM »

Maybe I just value sensor profile and burn speed too highly, but it really never seems like an interesting decision to me based on the logical points to transition to larger supply ships.

That's valid, but I also think that may be part of it, yeah. That said: I'm ok with "MS + another logistics mod" being a commonly-good choice, and I'm not saying that it's not. IMO there's just a lot of room between that and MS being an auto-pick to the point where it makes no sense for it to exist.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Civilian Grade Hull and Militarized Subsystems
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2020, 04:58:08 PM »

Just another point in addition, expanded cargo holds actually increases your supply upkeep by 50% on civilian ships if you don't have militarized subsystems, so I have trouble justifying using ECH without MS on a cargo ship. (the wiki says 100% but my in-game test seemed like 50%, not sure if there a skill at play or if a mod is changing it, or if the wiki is outdated)

I just really have trouble thinking of a scenario where I would want a civilian ship without militarized subsystems instead of either the same ship with MS, or a larger ship of the same type with MS.
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DatonKallandor

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Re: Civilian Grade Hull and Militarized Subsystems
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2020, 04:01:41 AM »

I use Militarized when it would save me from dropping a burn level. Otherwise I don't. It's a perfectly balanced hullmod, where it has plenty of equally valid alternatives but is still good.
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