Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Alex]

I'll say, I wasn't thinking of this potential hullmod as specifically for a command ship - rather, it's a really interesting tool that could make a battleship - not a battlecruiser! - without a mobility system or extreme range "work".

[Wyvern]

But, hmm - the Navigation skill has an elite effect where you get the zero-flux bonus so long as the ship isn't generating flux, so, it can be non-zero, and that might be too powerful combined with this.

Huh. I did not know about that, and yeah, having that work in tandem with a significant increase to the zero-flux boost would be potentially problematic.

It's kindof a weird skill bonus, actually; I can see that being very gameable for ships like the Conquest - stop firing & turn off shields for just a moment, go zip, re-activate shields when in new position. Not something I think the AI will be able to get much use out of, comparatively, but the way elite skill bonuses work that should be perfectly okay.

(As opposed to the current skill bonus, which I find to be very useful for the AI, especially in combination with top-tier shield skill; if you can keep up the zero-flux boost & dissipate small amounts of hard flux with shields on, then suddenly it's much less of a problem that AI ships will sometimes keep shields up when they really shouldn't.  Unfortunately, the current implementation also leads to degenerate beam-kiting variants, which are presumably not a desired outcome.)

I find this thought bizarre. Command ship, of all ships, is the ship that doesn't have to go anywhere, because its primary purpose is to make the player less concerned about what's happening to his ship and more what's happening to his fleet, and the flagship is not the entirety of the fleet. It will help stand the ship out nevertheless.

Huh. I guess that is a valid definition of a 'command ship', but it doesn't fit the definition I was going for. I see a 'Command Ship' as something that's meant to, one, be more fleet support than direct front-line slug-it-out battleship... and, two, is meant to be a good player ship. The ability to get around the battlefield quickly is useful for both of those roles; hard to support other ships if you can't get to where they are fast enough.

[Hiruma Kai]

I tend to agree that mobility abilities (zero-flux speed boost) don't strike me as command oriented.  Player ship oriented perhaps as players tend to be able to judge position and situations better, but in my mind that is not quite the same thing as command ship (especially for AI fleets).  Distinctly different speed AI ships often times just means the first arrivals are picked off before the main force arrives.

At the end of the day though, it starts sounding like a Conquest with its maneuvering jets or an Odyssey with its Plasma Burn.  Both of those systems are usable to get you where you are going faster.  Or even Burn drive, good at getting you to a problem area and bad at getting you away from it.  Admittedly, as a hull mod, it does open up the possibility for another ship system like reserve deployment or some other more capital themed ability.

To me, a command ship sounds like something with operations center, ECM Package and Nav Relay built in.  On a capital +5% is literally half the unskilled cap - not sure how it works out with 0.95a skills though.  But including those "free" outside of the normal OP budget would get the feel across.  At that point you have a ship benefiting the entire fleet simultaneously from anywhere.

If it has fighter wings, then you get into the weird interaction of sending fighters out interfering with 0-flux bonuses (by design normally).  If it doesn't have fighter wings, but is a mid-line capital with a mobility bonus or theme, it begins to sound like a Conquest.

[Retry]

I really like the idea of a proper command ship, too. It's hard to make it lead to fun gameplay, though. Shooting things directly will just always be more fun than making others better at shooting things, imo.

Well, a command capital ship would still be armed, even if not to the extent of a Paragon.  We're still talking about a presumably 35-45 DP warship, investing all that DP into one vessel just to have it sit back away from the action is unlikely to be optimal, or even a good idea.  (Also, some of us do enjoy playing in a "support" role...)

Mh. How about a special ability "Synchronized Battle Line":
Ships that escort you line up to both your sides and follow your movements as best they can, like drones with fixed positions. They get a huge range bonus to their non-pd weapons, but can only fire them when you fire, and only aim them at your target.

Honestly, sounds excessively complex, both for the player to understand and manage (and the AI, presumably), and just to code in general.  You'd need to burn a Command Point on an escort order for it to even work (even if the tactical circumstances don't warrant it), you'd almost certainly have to design your designated escorts from the ground up to work well with the system, there's a ton of room for the AI (or player) to mess up and get one of their escorts destroyed instead of doing whatever they're trying to do thanks to the escort's limited mobility and even more limited firing targets... I just don't see it working very well.

Something simpler and more general (and more command-y flavor) would likely save a lot of headaches, both for the developer and the player.

[FooF]

Well, to be fair, no one is saying that the ship in question has to be a "command ship:" it was just the original idea.

Here's my beef with mobility systems: they're everywhere and personally, I don't find them all that exciting. Yet, full disclosure, my favorite ships to pilot are Aurora and Odyssey because they're so nimble! Likewise, I can't deny that capitals (of all classes) probably need mobility systems the most. That's why a hullmod that increases mobility but doesn't take up a ship system is appealing to me. It frees up the ship system to do something, dare I say, more creative.

As to what defines a command ship, I think the term is loose enough that if you built-in a few hullmods (like Op. Center and/or ECM), it could be a full-fledged whatever and still be called a "command ship." I personally wouldn't want to pilot a ship that doesn't do anything except buff nearby ships. I've never liked playing support classes, tbh. I wouldn't expect a capital ship, especially one that eats a ton of DP, to be relegated to support. It needs to be a front-line fighter with a small dose support. Anything less wouldn't be fun to pilot (in my opinion, of course!).

I do agree with Hiruma Kai, though: if you give a Midline brawler a mobility bonus/system, you're overlapping roles with the Conquest. I feel that whatever this ship is, it needs to be considerably different. Dreadnaught, Artillery, Command, Logistics, or Carrier (Interceptor-Heavy or Hive ship) have been brought up. Those are distinct enough categories that you wouldn't compete with the Conquest (or existing capitals).

[Goumindong]

A thing I think would be an interesting trick for a command ship / light battleship? Having a larger-than-normal zero-flux speed boost (presumably from built-in hullmod).

One of the important things (for me) for a player ship is having the mobility to get to the right part of the fight; it's one of the reasons I tend to end up favoring cruisers with mobility systems. And while in the current game this sort of boost to zero-flux speed might lead to problematic beam-kiting loadouts, I believe the ability to maintain zero flux boost at low flux levels is going away...

Ohhh, this is a very solid idea! For example, the Paragon's range boost is less to do with making it difficult to kite (it's already got the capital-grade bonus to range, anyway), but more about increasing its effective influence on the battle - it's slow, but with extra range, it needs to go less far. So, yeah, "being able to get around" is a key concern for battleships.

But, hmm - the Navigation skill has an elite effect where you get the zero-flux bonus so long as the ship isn't generating flux, so, it can be non-zero, and that might be too powerful combined with this. Perhaps the bonus could depend on the flux level - maxed out a flux 0, and none at 50%+ or thereabouts. Frame it as "diverting all power to engines" or some such...

If you’re content with it being the ship special ability

Engine Flux Shunt

Activate to set flux dissipation to zero(you can still use shields and guns but it all adds to soft flux 100%) but add 50/100 speed.

I don’t like this on a new midline capital because like... it’s a midline Capital we are designing and they already have the mobility focused conquest. It doesn’t make sense from a fleet design perspective. (And neither does a capital command ship).

This is kind of why I proposed line breakers/finishers. The PL has a malleable line but it doesn’t have a lot of ways to punch holes in an enemy line once they get shields down. (Besides gryphons). So this is the natural path that design would dictate (hence the center mounted high explosive energy weapon with charges proposed, or the interceptors with heavy MIRV/squall support)


@SCC. Whether or not command ships should be mobile depends on the fleet spec. The main thing is that a command ship not be lost. So a command ship for the hegemony could be a brick on the assumption that it’s so strong the enemy will not crack it. But a command ship for the PL needs to be mobile in order to keep up with the cruiser doctrine and so as to not be caught and killed as the line moves.

[Alex]

Hmm. In my mind, having a built-in hullmod that provides out-of-immediate-combat mobility to the ship does not make it compete with the Conquest, whose mobility system is on-demand and quite useful in direct combat - to turn quickly, back off, etc. It's still useful outside combat too, of course, but for a battlecruiser, the defining feature of the ability is its in-combat use, which lets it dictate engagements.

For example, if you had this kind of hullmod on an Onslaught, would that make it into a battlecruiser, mobility-wise? And would that make the Conquest obsolete? It doesn't seem like it - the kind of run-and-gun you can do with the Conquest just doesn't seem possible with this hullmod alone.

[SonnaBanana]

Based on my previous suggestion, I propose a fleet support carrier.

• Poor hull, armor, shield. Good burn, maneuverability and speed, on par with a cruiser
• Less weapons than Astral. 5-6 hangers. System is Apogee's Active Flares but launches far more flares over a wider area
• Low DP and maintenence. Fuel efficient.
• Plenty of built-in hullmods. Recovery Shuttles, ECM, Nav Relay, Operations Center are mandatory. May also possess Salvage Gantry and/or Ground Support Package

[Goumindong]

Hmm. In my mind, having a built-in hullmod that provides out-of-immediate-combat mobility to the ship does not make it compete with the Conquest, whose mobility system is on-demand and quite useful in direct combat - to turn quickly, back off, etc. It's still useful outside combat too, of course, but for a battlecruiser, the defining feature of the ability is its in-combat use, which lets it dictate engagements.

For example, if you had this kind of hullmod on an Onslaught, would that make it into a battlecruiser, mobility-wise? And would that make the Conquest obsolete? It doesn't seem like it - the kind of run-and-gun you can do with the Conquest just doesn't seem possible with this hullmod alone.

Well I am less concerned with the onslaught having it since the Onslaught is not midline and not in the PL fleet doctrine unless it was good enough to make the Onslaught just better.  Overlap or competitiveness across fleet styles makes sense(so long as a secondary aspect of a style does not dominate a primary aspect of the other). Hegemony need line setters and PL need line setters so each having one is fine unless they both set lines in the same way. So having a more mobile line backer type ship for the hegemony (IE one that goes to reinforce a point of the line that starts to be weak) makes sense and doesn’t step on the toes of each doctrine. (As an example the Monitor is probably this ship for the Hegemony. It’s not that fast but it’s still frigate fast. So it can get to a point on the line that is breaking and eat some fire to hold until real reinforcements come.

But Overlap within a fleet style starts to raise some eyebrows*. Why was the ship designed if it’s so similar to another version of the same ship? If they’re at roughly the same DP and are both the mobile fire support one will tend to just be better. If them doing the mobility in a different way is enough to provide space for each having a unique role in the fleet doctrine then this is OK. But I suspect that it won’t, not at the same DP. Maybe if the conquest goes true battlecruiser 30-35 DP and this goes true battleship 40-45 maybe(or reverse). But both at 40? It’s a hard sell.

Like, for a command ship I would just prefer a 30 DP eagle or gryphon that had battleship hull classification and the same weapon profile as a falcon/gryphon. Sure it’s 8 DP more than an eagle but it’s got battleship EW and battleship range. Worth bringing one and not more than one

So for a mod line battleship I want something that provides a different role than the conquest, not just something that gets around in a different way. And I am skeptical that this can be done on a similar DP budget.


*i think the legion has this issue as a result of its burn drive. It wants to be like a line backer or line setter while the onslaught is a line breaker. But it’s got a forward mobility system and has a hard time relocating around the line. If it had mobility jets it would fit it’s role a lot more since it could more easily slide around the line to hold where that was necessary. Or if it had a damper field it could be an anvil. With with mobility jets I don’t think it steps on the conquests toes. I tend to think the Mora is just a straight up better Legion at the moment. You get 6 fighters/40 DP and you get damper field to be a rock against.

[Schwartz]

The trouble with a command ship, as was pointed out, is that the Conquest makes a great command ship already. It's very fast. It's squishy, meaning you're fine with it not taking the front line. It can afford range super cheaply thanks to ballistics integration. And it can punch hard at range. I guess all that's left would be to put a command ship hullmod on it, and we have these already.

I'm fine with the concept, but a sister ship to the Conquest would have to be different to most of the above. Fighter / missile loadout is one idea. Lending bonuses to ships in range (think "aura") is another.

[TaLaR]

For example, the Paragon's range boost is less to do with making it difficult to kite (it's already got the capital-grade bonus to range, anyway)...

Imo, ATC is absolutely critical for Paragon. Energy weapons have shortest hard flux range and soft flux is relatively easy to tank.
Before ATC introduction Onslaught could easily defeat a Paragon using just TPCs. Or even a Dominator with 2xGauss, as long as Paragon wasn't in full beams+optics build.

[Megas]

Re: Legion
Burn Drive is a liability for AI that wants to hang back.  They try to retreat, burn forward, then die.  If I am piloting Legion, I want Burn Drive (especially against sub-capital targets) because I build Legion to brawl like an Onslaught.

Re: ATC
Paragon without it was a joke after lances lost their 2500+ range.  Dominator flagship with 900 range heavy weapons (and 1000 range Maulers/HVD) could win Flawless Victory against it  (Tank lances with shield, unload everything between lance shots).  Dominator was probably the only cruiser I could solo the simulator with during 0.7 releases.  Eagle could safely attack Paragon, but lacked the firepower to kill it before running out of PPT.  Meanwhile, Onslaught was the godship during that time.

Back on topic...
Another idea:  A super Brawler.  Take the main module from the midline battlestation and turn it into a ship.  Its gimmick?  Overwhelming firepower in one direction.  Idea for special:  Much faster rotation, but using it builds up flux.  Lame? Probably.

[Gothars]

Another theme that would be interesting and very fitting with the upcoming changes: A planetary invasion capital ship for performing big scale raids. It would have a (capital grade!) ground support package, large crew compartments and fuel tanks and a hullmod that increases planetary bombardment efficiency. It would also be relatively sneaky, i.e. have a low sensor profile to reach planets without having to fight all its patrols. In combat there would be different options, but a long range bombardment vessel that's good against stations would make a  lot of thematic sense.

[Megas]

Another theme that would be interesting and very fitting with the upcoming changes: A planetary invasion capital ship for performing big scale raids. It would have a (capital grade!) ground support package, large crew compartments and fuel tanks and a hullmod that increases planetary bombardment efficiency. It would also be relatively sneaky, i.e. have a low sensor profile to reach planets without having to fight all its patrols. In combat there would be different options, but a long range bombardment vessel that's good against stations would make a  lot of thematic sense.

Onslaught and Legion are halfway there already, with plenty of extra personnel capacity.  Just give them the raider hullmods and a bit more fuel capacity, and call it a day.  (I already use Onslaughts as troop transports when I bring thousands of marines to steal items from Sindria.)

Legion kind of reminds me of the Ur-Quan Dreadnought.

However, Onslaught/Legion being the only capitals that are somewhat raider capable might be a bit dull.  If the new midline capital turns out to be a big battleship, dreadnought, or massive command ship, being able to siege planets with it would be nice too.

[Megas]

Thinking about command ship more, maybe give Legion a built-in Operations Center hullmod for free.

Conquest could use it too if want someone want to kite with it.  (I tend to take Conquest to the front line to brawl and use its mobility either to swap sides with one side loses weapons, or to have both sides firing at the same time.)