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Author Topic: Starsector 0.95a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 600248 times)

TuxedoCatfish

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1680 on: April 16, 2021, 01:13:53 AM »

Exactly what I said in my original post: ECM is a single number that has more of an effect on how combat (especially combat between AI) turns out than any other factor.

When you win the ECM war, player piloting skill doesn't really matter, and good fittings don't really matter, because unless you screwed up catastrophically you're going to win effortlessly. And that's boring. It would be good if ECM mattered less, so that other things could matter more -- especially things that are more complicated than "get as much of this number as you can."

When you lose the ECM war then player skill matters a lot (because you can claw your advantage back by killing off enemy ships/officers) -- but that still diminishes the importance of fittings and fleet composition, which isn't good either.

It would be better if these things were more equal in importance, because then you're rewarded for learning all of them, increasing the depth of the game and the time it takes to master it, and also making that mastery more rewarding. And it might even be better if those things were more important than ECM, because ECM is just "big number = better", while player piloting and fitting are both complex and involve a lot of decisions, trade-offs, and experience.

No. I was saying that right now people can no longer auto win. The most critic came in the "I'm always at -20% range disadvantage so nerf the ECM" form. Not the other way around. It happened to be too difficult to devise the particular set of skills and fleet composition to auto-win the ECM game.

If you're saying people can no longer auto-win, then you're simply wrong, because that's exactly what having +20% ECM does. It even does it for the exact same reason that the ITU used to -- range is really good and the AI doesn't understand hit-and-run tactics well enough to compensate for inferior range!
« Last Edit: April 16, 2021, 01:16:22 AM by TuxedoCatfish »
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Lucky33

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1681 on: April 16, 2021, 01:28:42 AM »

You missed the whole point. To win the ECM game you need frigate based fleet. Good luck auto winning with them while disregarding everything else.
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TuxedoCatfish

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1682 on: April 16, 2021, 01:29:30 AM »

I didn't "miss the point." I was never talking about using frigates or not in the first place. It makes absolutely no difference to what I'm saying. If you're going to reply to a post I made then please address my argument and not some other argument you were having with someone else.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2021, 01:31:07 AM by TuxedoCatfish »
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Lucky33

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1683 on: April 16, 2021, 01:38:25 AM »

I didn't "miss the point." I was never talking about using frigates or not in the first place. It makes absolutely no difference to what I'm saying. If you're going to reply to a post I made then please address my argument and not some other argument you were having with someone else.

It does make the difference. There is only certain way to make sure that you have that 20% range advantage against everything. And this way doesn't produce stable auto wins. Hence ECM doesn't equal auto win. And your whole argument is based on the assumption that you only have to win the ECM game and this makes everything else unimportant. Well, it is an incorrect assumption.
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RedHellion

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1684 on: April 16, 2021, 01:49:40 AM »

2 RedHellion

You didn't find it. You was told by me. And if, for some reason, Starsector would be a game with the rail-fixed mechanics when any given skill or game feature was supposed to be used in a given manner, we would't be talking right here. Because I wouldn't even buy the game in the first place.

I said my piece and gave my feedback on what I felt could be better, and explained as much as I could why I felt that using the Automated Ships skill essentially as a vehicle for deploying more officers wasn't something I would agree with balancing around and instead saw it as a sign for fixing some of the reasons why it becomes such a stellar meta in the first place (same thing with the [REDACTED] battleship + Alpha Core being meta on the opposite end for the skill since most of the other [REDACTED] ships pale in comparison given the low DP cap for the skill). You obviously disagree, and we obviously have very different playstyles and the way we view aspects of the game, and if the way I explained my thoughts wasn't satisfactory to you then so be it - I said it to contribute to the community. No need to start getting hostile.

Ultimately Alex is the dev, and it's his vision and he will weigh all the feedback and feel how it is for himself as he moves forward with whatever changes he feels are necessary.
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Lucky33

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1685 on: April 16, 2021, 02:01:57 AM »

OK
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TuxedoCatfish

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1686 on: April 16, 2021, 02:15:34 AM »

You do not need to use a frigate-based fleet to the point of neglecting everything else to win the ECM war.

Even Remnant Ordos rarely have more than 40-50% ECM strength; my 180 DP fleet with 4 frigates and 5 cruisers hits 40%, and that's with zero ECM mods on any of my ships, and using mostly high-tech ships with very high DP costs. If I put ECM mods on everything I would have an ECM strength of 68%, which would translate to a -20% penalty to any enemy fleet that wasn't a deliberately-unfair endgame enemy, and would often be enough even for those. If I used ships that cost less DP then I might not even need frigates at all (although I don't mind having a few, because frigates encourage the enemy fleet to spread out chasing them).

I suppose it's technically possible to lose a fight where your opponent has a 20% range penalty, but even with full hands-off autopiloting your ships will usually win in that situation unless your fits are pants-on-head level terrible.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2021, 02:19:23 AM by TuxedoCatfish »
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Lucky33

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1687 on: April 16, 2021, 02:48:31 AM »

It is about the random distribution of skills. 1. Cores are needed to be in frigates. 2. Cores have to have the GI skills. Low tier Ordos have lots of low tier cores with limited skill choices and frigates may be left core-less. So, your "Remnant Ordos rarely have more than 40-50% ECM strength" translates into "I rarely meet full alpha remnant fleets". Well, what can I say, this game is full of interesting discoveries and you are about to make yours.
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TuxedoCatfish

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1688 on: April 16, 2021, 02:53:26 AM »

It is about the random distribution of skills. 1. Cores are needed to be in frigates. 2. Cores have to have the GI skills. Low tier Ordos have lots of low tier cores with limited skill choices and frigates may be left core-less. So, your "Remnant Ordos rarely have more than 40-50% ECM strength" translates into "I rarely meet full alpha remnant fleets". Well, what can I say, this game is full of interesting discoveries and you are about to make yours.

So what you're actually saying is that in a tiny, RNG-based minority of the hardest non-unique fleets in the entire game, if the stars align against you, and if you insist on taking those fights, you might need to use slightly more small ships?

Those goalposts are so far away from where they started, you'd have to re-activate the gate network to reach them.
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Lucky33

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1689 on: April 16, 2021, 03:02:48 AM »

It is about the random distribution of skills. 1. Cores are needed to be in frigates. 2. Cores have to have the GI skills. Low tier Ordos have lots of low tier cores with limited skill choices and frigates may be left core-less. So, your "Remnant Ordos rarely have more than 40-50% ECM strength" translates into "I rarely meet full alpha remnant fleets". Well, what can I say, this game is full of interesting discoveries and you are about to make yours.

So what you're actually saying is that in a tiny, RNG-based minority of the hardest non-unique fleets in the entire game, if the stars align against you, and if you insist on taking those fights, you might need to use slightly more small ships?

Those goalposts are so far away from where they started, you'd have to re-activate the gate network to reach them.

No, it is pretty typical in the end-game. When you have multiple contacts with the high importance level. I'm just saying why you are seeing what you are seeing.
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TuxedoCatfish

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1690 on: April 16, 2021, 03:11:44 AM »

So to be clear: in 99% of the game you don't need a frigate-based fleet to win the ECM war, and in the 1% that's left over, after the game is essentially over and you're doing a victory lap... you probably still don't, you just need to think a little bit about DP:ECM ratio and hull modding.

What's the highest ECM rating you've seen a single enemy fleet generate?
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Lucky33

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1691 on: April 16, 2021, 03:26:51 AM »

So to be clear: in 99% of the game you don't need a frigate-based fleet to win the ECM war, and in the 1% that's left over, after the game is essentially over and you're doing a victory lap... you probably still don't, you just need to think a little bit about DP:ECM ratio and hull modding.

What's the highest ECM rating you've seen a single enemy fleet generate?

For me it is more like the game at this point actually begins. And prior to that it is more of the extended tutorial. Why would you even bother to install 0.95 to deal with 0.91 stuff? I mean seriously. The whole new layer was introduced and you... What? Start a new run before you even see the omega led ordo?
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TuxedoCatfish

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1692 on: April 16, 2021, 03:30:21 AM »

I've cleared all three Omega fights. You should probably try focusing on substance instead of just calling people bad when they point out that you're wrong.

Again, though: what's the biggest ECM rating you've seen a single enemy fleet generate?
« Last Edit: April 16, 2021, 03:33:37 AM by TuxedoCatfish »
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Lucky33

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1693 on: April 16, 2021, 03:46:06 AM »

I've cleared all three Omega fights. You should probably try focusing on substance instead of just calling people bad when they point out that you're wrong.

Again, though: what's the biggest ECM rating you've seen a single enemy fleet generate?

This is the substance.

I can't remember the exact number. It was triple digit.
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Anvel

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1694 on: April 16, 2021, 04:27:20 AM »

Flying around on 180dp mid-low tech plus Odyssey fleet stumping everyone, ~80 ECM rating, the biggest remnant ECM I saw was 108. The game becomes easier than in 0.9.1, just don't spam big and dp hungry ships and capture points to even dp points with the enemy.
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