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Author Topic: Starsector 0.95a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 598170 times)

Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #795 on: March 11, 2021, 12:06:05 PM »

Been experimenting wit this set of changes for the Storm Needler:
Storm Needler:
      Damage reduced to 50/shot (was: 75)
      Flux/shot reduced to 35 (was: 65)
      Reduced accuracy
      Shot visuals changed to match Heavy Needler

So far it feels pretty good - it's a really high-efficiency way to trade flux, but it's also near-useless vs armor/hull, not great vs smaller targets (especially at range), and still has only 700 range. I *think* that might give it more of a niche without making it clear-best in too many cases. And it plays nicely with the general low-tech theme of many ships having burn drive to close the gap.
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SCC

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #796 on: March 11, 2021, 12:17:57 PM »

Is there something you didn't include in the post? There are changes, but it's as if there were no changes, at least to me. People who didn't use it still won't use it, since that's only a slight efficiency buff (so long it doesn't miss, which it might do more now), while people who use it only get a slight efficiency buff, it doesn't change how they use it.

Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #797 on: March 11, 2021, 12:38:32 PM »

Thinking about it, I don't think it needs too much of a buff. It's borderline usable as-is, and increasing efficiency while also reducing the overall flux/second (making it easier to keep firing) are both solid improvements. I also wouldn't call the efficiency buff "slight", it's pretty hefty. It's more efficient than the other needlers now! Especially vs large targets.

I thought about increasing the range on it, but that I think is the way into trouble - it makes it less differentiated from other large kinetics, and also gets it closer to the possible line of "better than any other choice". So I think a lighter touch is more appropriate here.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #798 on: March 11, 2021, 01:04:51 PM »

I don't think the problem has ever been that it's bad in a vacuum, it's just really hard to fit on the ships that exist because of the huge flux costs. The changes Alex posted look like the would make it a lot more usable to me, but I would have to experiment to see how it performs.
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #799 on: March 11, 2021, 01:12:23 PM »

That flux drop might actually make Storm Needlers Onslaught viable.  Well, enough to at least fit one.

750/650 =1.15 damage per flux
500/350 = 1.42 damage per flux
A 23% improvement in flux efficiency while still dealing out large mount damage, since 500 kinetic DPS is still more kinetic DPS than any other single weapon.

Interestingly, from my damage per OP plus vents method, the efficiency drops very slightly.  750/(28+65)= 8.06 versus 500/(28+35) = 7.93.   Keeping the OP at 28 while cutting the damage by 1/3 hurts efficiency from that point of view, although not by enough for anyone to really notice.

Basically, what I'm saying is 2 old style storm needlers + 28 vents (84 OP)  is slightly better than 3 new style storm needlers (84 OP).
1500 kinetic DPS at 650+650-280=1020 flux/second versus 1500 kinetic DPS at 1050 flux/second.  Need 1 less mount, and have 30 better flux dissipation for the same OP cost.  On the other hand, I don't think there's a capital ship with sufficient spare vent capacity and sufficient large mounts to actually prefer the old style, except maybe the Conquest.

Interestingly, this is a lot like the plasma cannon buff.  More efficiency but weaker per mount, along with less penetration.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2021, 01:20:04 PM by Hiruma Kai »
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #800 on: March 11, 2021, 01:16:13 PM »

I don't think the problem has ever been that it's bad in a vacuum, it's just really hard to fit on the ships that exist because of the huge flux costs. The changes Alex posted look like the would make it a lot more usable to me, but I would have to experiment to see how it performs.
Currently, if I put it on Onslaught, it is probably the only weapon mounted because that plus TPCs and PD weapon eat up all of the dissipation, and AI is notoriously trigger-happy.  The only advantage Storm Needler had was it was much cheaper than multiple Heavy Needlers, but the 700 range was a big drawback, when Heavy Needlers have 800.  Now that Heavy Needlers have less range, and Heavy AC seems to have remained the same...

However, I will need to try it out on Conquest.  It could use current two Storm Needlers just fine, but (with Heavy Mortar) did not noticeably outperform other weapon combinations.

I kind of wish Storm Needler had the same range as Heavy Needler (750 Storm or 700 HN, whatever).  As long as its range is less than 900, I doubt it would displace other heavy weapons.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #801 on: March 11, 2021, 01:36:41 PM »

I believe those changes should result in 350 flux/sec and 500 damage/sec. That feels like it should fit into an onslaught loadout without too much trouble, it's easier to fit in than current Mark IX. It will probably be pretty good on aggressive officered dominators as well.
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pairedeciseaux

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #802 on: March 11, 2021, 01:48:53 PM »

Been experimenting wit this set of changes for the Storm Needler:
Storm Needler:
      Damage reduced to 50/shot (was: 75)
      Flux/shot reduced to 35 (was: 65)
      Reduced accuracy
      Shot visuals changed to match Heavy Needler


I don't think the problem has ever been that it's bad in a vacuum, it's just really hard to fit on the ships that exist because of the huge flux costs. The changes Alex posted look like the would make it a lot more usable to me, but I would have to experiment to see how it performs.

That flux drop might actually make Storm Needlers Onslaught viable.  Well, enough to at least fit one.

Agreed, going from 650 to 350 changes at lot of things.

IMO, 350 feels too low, and the "efficiency" seems too high. But it sure does open new uses. :)

Storm Needler becomes closer to a HMG, which is not a bad thing.
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Thaago

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #803 on: March 11, 2021, 02:12:06 PM »

Interesting! 350 flux per second is indeed a reasonable gun for an Onslaught or Dominator flux budget, as current Mk IX is 400 and Heph is 480.

Comparing the new Mk IX and new Storm needler:
Both have 350 flux/second.
Mk IX is 350 DPS, Storm needler is 600 DPS. Accuracy comparison may effect this, but with Storm Needler losing accuracy it may have a similar hit rate to Mk IX
Mk IX has 200 shot size vs 50: significantly better hull damage per shot. Vs a hypothetical 1000 armor reduced to 50 from minimum, Mk IX is doing 66%, or 233. Storm needler is doing 33%, or 200.
Mk IX has 900 range, Storm 700
Mk IX is 18 OP, Storm 28.

So, to sum up: Storm has a massive advantage in close range anti-shield combat but is slightly worse against hull. Mk IX has a large range advantage, and is 10 OP cheaper. I can see using both these guns depending on the situation: the Storm Needler is an excellent anti-high tech weapon, because high tech (other than paragon) needs to get close to engage and relies on their shields. The Mk IX is a more general weapon.
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #804 on: March 11, 2021, 02:20:26 PM »

More efficiency should not be a problem if it still costs 28 DP to mount, given the large damage cut.  I wonder if 28 OP might cost too much for Storm Needler, given its other stats.  (Maybe it is fine for low-tech, but I doubt it for Conquest.)

With low tech, there comes a point when they cannot crank dissipation any higher, and need all of the efficiency they can get to support more than a few guns.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #805 on: March 11, 2021, 03:14:11 PM »

I think conquest still might want it, since it has lots of other ways to dump dissipation into damage. You could try storm needler and heavy blaster combos or stuff like that. I was thinking SN + Mjolnir could be a solid combo as well on conquest.
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #806 on: March 11, 2021, 04:01:43 PM »

I think conquest still might want it, since it has lots of other ways to dump dissipation into damage. You could try storm needler and heavy blaster combos or stuff like that. I was thinking SN + Mjolnir could be a solid combo as well on conquest.
Maybe, if Conquest has OP left.  Conquest does not have very much OP, just enough for spartan but effective loadouts.  Now instead of 28 OP only for a mega weapon, we will pay more than that for a weaker Storm Needler plus another weapon to make up for damage.  Yes, Conquest probably can fill more mounts to make up for damage, but only if it has OP left.

My favorite Mjolnir+HN+Mk9 might not work anymore with HN losing range (needs testing), but HAG+Mk9+2xHAC appears to be no worse than it is now since HAC still has 800 range.

The new Storm Needler could help low-tech ships since they lack dissipation to support much more than a single old Storm Needler.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2021, 04:03:47 PM by Megas »
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Goumindong

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #807 on: March 11, 2021, 04:34:20 PM »

I think conquest still might want it, since it has lots of other ways to dump dissipation into damage. You could try storm needler and heavy blaster combos or stuff like that. I was thinking SN + Mjolnir could be a solid combo as well on conquest.

Probably not. It was always been hard to fit an SN on the conquest because the conquests heavy ballistic integration significantly increases the value of the lower OP weapons and because the conquest is relatively fragile and doesn't want to get in close. The Conquest was one of the few places i really really liked the Mark IX on the current lineup because its so efficient there.

And the new numbers on the storm needler actually make it worse for the Conquest. The Conquest was never short for dissipation. Its always been short for OP, so making it less DPS/OP efficient but more flux/dmg efficient takes it in the wrong direction for it to be fit on a Conquest.

To put numbers on it: A Storm Needler would do 500 DPS for 18 OP(27.7 DPS/OP) but a Mark IX would do 348 DPS for 8 OP. (43.5 DPS/OP). The Mark IX is doing better DPS/OP than the SN even before this change(750/18=41.6 DPS/OP). You can add an entire extra medium gun or missile onto the ship for the difference in OP and because the ship doesn't have space for Vulcans you will often be short on medium ballistic in order to do the normal HE/Kin swap. And once you add onto the range and the fact that the conquest doesn't even really need to use that efficient weapons due to its huge 1200 base dissipation... But does have issues getting right next to enemies due to its relatively weaker armor (Heavy Armor change may help here) bad shields, and lack of small ballistic slots for PD... there is very little change that the new storm needler would go on a conquest over a Mark IX.





I believe those changes should result in 350 flux/sec and 500 damage/sec. That feels like it should fit into an onslaught loadout without too much trouble, it's easier to fit in than current Mark IX. It will probably be pretty good on aggressive officered dominators as well.

But 28 vs 18 OP is a pretty big disadvantage. The storm needler would not have less DPS/OP than a Mark IX. Which is... Maybe not the direction you would want to go on a dominator or onslaught. 10 OP is pretty huge there since you could instead fit more caps for more peak DPS firing time. I actually think that the changes make the weapon worse and less likely to be fit. Unless it comes with a significant decrease in OP: down to maybe the 18-22 range.

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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #808 on: March 11, 2021, 04:56:37 PM »

Probably not. It was always been hard to fit an SN on the conquest because the conquests heavy ballistic integration significantly increases the value of the lower OP weapons and because the conquest is relatively fragile and doesn't want to get in close.
That's a fair point, I didn't consider how heavy ballistic integration factored in. I still think it might be interesting to see how a high efficiency source of kinetic damage could enable some low efficiency high DPS weapons that are difficult to support otherwise (heavy blaster Mjolnir etc.) It will be fun to experiment when the new patch comes out.

I believe those changes should result in 350 flux/sec and 500 damage/sec. That feels like it should fit into an onslaught loadout without too much trouble, it's easier to fit in than current Mark IX. It will probably be pretty good on aggressive officered dominators as well.

But 28 vs 18 OP is a pretty big disadvantage. The storm needler would not have less DPS/OP than a Mark IX. Which is... Maybe not the direction you would want to go on a dominator or onslaught. 10 OP is pretty huge there since you could instead fit more caps for more peak DPS firing time. I actually think that the changes make the weapon worse and less likely to be fit. Unless it comes with a significant decrease in OP: down to maybe the 18-22 range.
Eh, low tech ships are more dissipation limited than OP limited. Efficiency is just a measure of how effectively a weapon turns dissipation/flux into damage, so it's more important to be flux efficient than OP efficient on low tech ships that are flux limited IMO.

Heavy needler is already a good example of how efficiency can be more important than damage/OP.
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LookItsRain

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #809 on: March 11, 2021, 05:14:44 PM »

Personally, i think the storm needler is too expensive OP cost wise to be picked over the MK IX in a majority of circumstances even with these buffs. 10 OP is a gigantic cost difference vs a MK IX and  imo the storm needler does not offer enough advantages to make up for that 10 OP difference.

In response to LAG's, LAG's are too flux inefficient to ever really be a general good choice for a small ballistic slot, and the damage per shot makes them fairly ineffective vs any decent armor value. Its also partially the fact because imo, railguns are simply too good for the slot and range match with alot of other weapons in larger slots that provide really good flux efficiency and OP cost. Also the general fact that up-sizing your HE damage guns generally nets better overall combat performance because of the armor mechanics.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2021, 05:16:41 PM by LookItsRain »
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