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Author Topic: Starsector 0.95a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 514698 times)

Goumindong

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #765 on: March 10, 2021, 11:46:55 AM »

Re: Storm Needler and HE vs kinetc, etc - some good thoughts here! Is it fair to compare Railgun + Heavy Mortar vs HAC + LAG, though? A more fair comparison would be Dual LAC + Heavy Mortar, I think, and that becomes much less clear-cut. I don't think it's so much about per-shot damage - maybe it's more about the extra range on the higher-quality small kinetics.

But then HE in general doesn't have many "premium" options like the Railgun/Needler. The old Heavy Mauler for example could combine nicely with large kinetics, and iirc it was often the go-to for many loadouts. But HE that's "too good" is more problematic than kinetics that are too good... so in that sense comparing the best-available options for each type does make sense, even if it's not an apples-to-apples comparison.

Regarding ships that *could* make good use of large kinetics, per the idea of combining them with missiles - the Legion seems like a solid candidate, because it both has a bunch of missile slots, *and* fighters which can also benefit from kinetic support. And burn drive, which can potentially let it make use of shorter-ranged weapons...

Railgun + HM costs 14 OP. HAC+LAG  costs 15 OP. So i think that the comparison is pretty fair. Its cheaper to run RG+HM than it is to run HAC+LAG. That it also tends to be better because of the superior armor penetrating power of the HM compared to the LAG is just extra butter. You could compare the DLAC+HM(12 OP) to the Arbalest + LAG (13 OP) and while the Arb/LAG does a bit better relatively here... i think the DLAC/HM comes out on top still.

Its far easier to "downsize" the larger HE and still be efficient and then "upsize" the smaller kinetic than it is the reverse. Even if you made the HM have the same  DPS/flux profile as the LAG but made its projectiles do 50% more dmg/hit it would be far better to use the mortar and a small kinetic. Even if you made it 8 OP and made it 160 DPS/160 flux the DLAC+HM at 13 OP would be better than the Arbalest + LAG at 13 OP. And the RG+HM would be better than the HAC+LAG at 15 OP each(well that one is a lot closer actually).

Re: Storm Needler Legion

The Legion is a good option for Storm Needlers(Two even!). I guess i just didn't really consider it because i don't use the Legion a lot. But it does have the weapons profile for it. Large Ballistic plus medium missile (well composite but if you're running Storm you've not got the flux to run Medium Ballistic here) and the option to get HE missiles from bombers and just have the bombers sit next to it and fire.
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Dri

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #766 on: March 10, 2021, 11:47:28 AM »

Biggest reason Alex doesn't just toss the patch out there is bandwidth $$$. Everyone redownloading new versions gets pricey.
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #767 on: March 10, 2021, 12:00:39 PM »

Railgun + HM costs 14 OP. HAC+LAG  costs 15 OP. So i think that the comparison is pretty fair.

I think this is more about the relative power of the weapons. Railgun + HM is "balanced" - both weapons have roughly the same power level, as reflected by their OP costs. HAC + LAG, one of the weapons is 2x more expensive; it's a lopsided combination and that contributes to it being worse. It's not the *only* factor, certainly - per-shot damage for HE etc factors in. But using non-premium kinetics for the comparison I think gives a clearer picture of the impact of those other factors.

Biggest reason Alex doesn't just toss the patch out there is bandwidth $$$. Everyone redownloading new versions gets pricey.

It's a reason, but it's not the main reason! Getting *any* version ready for release is a ton of work. Things need to come together well in so many different ways - gameplay balance, testing, new features interacting with each other well, and so on. The amount of extra work to get an "intermediate" version ready would be absurd to the point where it's not even remotely practical; more than just getting the actual intended version out, probably, since I'd have to make a ton of decisions about what to include and what not to include, etc. And it'd be a worse version since, generally speaking, releases include a set of things that work together well and mostly need each other to do so. Cutting some of those things out impacts what remains.

A month or two out from a release, the actual dev build has most of the things in it, but I think most players would be shocked at how not-actually-fun-to-play it is. Most of that - things clicking together into a cohesive, playable whole - happens very close to the end of the cycle.

Any guess when the patch might be coming?

Pretty soon(tm). No, seriously - the playtesting is pretty far along, and going well at this point!
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #768 on: March 10, 2021, 12:01:28 PM »

Re: Storm Needler and HE vs kinetc, etc - some good thoughts here! Is it fair to compare Railgun + Heavy Mortar vs HAC + LAG, though? A more fair comparison would be Dual LAC + Heavy Mortar, I think, and that becomes much less clear-cut. I don't think it's so much about per-shot damage - maybe it's more about the extra range on the higher-quality small kinetics.

But then HE in general doesn't have many "premium" options like the Railgun/Needler. The old Heavy Mauler for example could combine nicely with large kinetics, and iirc it was often the go-to for many loadouts. But HE that's "too good" is more problematic than kinetics that are too good... so in that sense comparing the best-available options for each type does make sense, even if it's not an apples-to-apples comparison.

Regarding ships that *could* make good use of large kinetics, per the idea of combining them with missiles - the Legion seems like a solid candidate, because it both has a bunch of missile slots, *and* fighters which can also benefit from kinetic support. And burn drive, which can potentially let it make use of shorter-ranged weapons...
I would use medium HE to combo with Railgun because 700 range is better than LAG's 600.  Also, HAC has 800 range while LAG is 600 (but there is nothing better than Heavy Mortar, so 700 range is all we have for basic HE).  That effectively reduces attack range to 600.  (AI may try to armor tank kinetics is they are the only thing threatening it.)  I rather take 700 range (from Railgun and Mortar combo) for general-purpose attacking.  As for light autocannon plus HE, I do not know.

Heavy Mauler used to combine well with medium kinetics, but the slow firing rate and low DPS is such that I rather not use it unless it is the only option.  Also, it is better if max range is kinetics instead of HE, if they cannot be equal, for AI's sake.

As for Legion, if I want it to be a good carrier, then I take Deck Crew and fighters, then I outfit it like a gunship.  Legion had bad flux stats.  I put two guns in the heavy mount and two dual flak on two of the composites.  If the heavies were filled with two Hellbore, then one or two heavy needlers in more composites.  If I use Mark Ix+HAG or Mjolnir+Heavy Needler in the heavies, then no more weapons.  (All smalls are empty.)  Rest goes into flux and hullmods.  Legion is a carrier (and a gunship), it does not need missiles because fighters are better missiles than missiles (at least medium-sized missiles).  If I want to play with medium missiles, better to use Onslaught instead of Legion.  Legion is one of those ships where I leave most mounts empty to focus on fighters, but two heavy weapons with ITU plus fighters is enough to do serious damage to many things, which makes it a viable gunship, unlike other dedicated carriers.

As for Legion14, until we get the Champion, the point of using it is it is the only good platform for Hammer Barrage.  If I want a ship to play silly and go nuts with dumb-fire large missiles, Legion14 is the only good choice.
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #769 on: March 10, 2021, 12:04:28 PM »

I would use medium HE to combo with Railgun because 700 range is better than LAG's 600.  Also, HAC has 800 range while LAG is 600 (but there is nothing better than Heavy Mortar, so 700 range is all we have for basic HE).  That effectively reduces attack range to 600.  (AI may try to armor tank kinetics is they are the only thing threatening it.)  I rather take 700 range (from Railgun and Mortar combo) for general-purpose attacking.  As for light autocannon plus HE, I do not know.

Yeah, the ranges also make sense! It's just a more balanced combination in different ways.
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Zelnik

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #770 on: March 10, 2021, 12:09:03 PM »

Quote



A month or two out from a release, the actual dev build has most of the things in it, but I think most players would be shocked at how not-actually-fun-to-play it is. Most of that - things clicking together into a cohesive, playable whole - happens very close to the end of the cycle.




Pretty soon(tm). No, seriously - the playtesting is pretty far along, and going well at this point!


This is really all I wanted to hear, thanks!
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Goumindong

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #771 on: March 10, 2021, 12:18:57 PM »

Railgun + HM costs 14 OP. HAC+LAG  costs 15 OP. So i think that the comparison is pretty fair.

I think this is more about the relative power of the weapons. Railgun + HM is "balanced" - both weapons have roughly the same power level, as reflected by their OP costs. HAC + LAG, one of the weapons is 2x more expensive; it's a lopsided combination and that contributes to it being worse. It's not the *only* factor, certainly - per-shot damage for HE etc factors in. But using non-premium kinetics for the comparison I think gives a clearer picture of the impact of those other factors.

HAC has the highest DPS/OP of the kinetic mediums. It is a premium kinetic. It may be lopsided in that its worth far more than the LAG but if we drop down to the "non premium kinetic" Arbalest then arbalest + LAG is 13 OP(8+5) and DLight Autocannon + Mortar is 12 OP.(5+7) and i know which combination i would rather have. And this extends regardless of small changes to OP cost here. I think would rather have the DLAC+Mortar at 13 OP than the Arbalest + LAG at 12. It takes a lot to overcome the additional hit strength on armor that a larger HE naturally produces.

But if we had a storm needler backed up by medium energy... Well then that changes things, i cannot get even close .43 flux/dmg (vs shields) on any energy mount. But i can get 2.88 flux/damage against 1000 armor which is really close to the HM's 2.26 out of a medium energy slot.
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Retry

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #772 on: March 10, 2021, 12:40:38 PM »

Why is DLAC+HM more fair for the HAC+LAG comparison than Railgun+HM?  A HAC+LAG combination is 15 OP.  DLAC+HM is only 12 OP, quite a bit lighter on the budget.  Railgun+HM is 14 OP, so it's much closer to the HAC+LAG combo (actually a bit cheaper, but close enough).

The argument being made here is that "small kinetic + medium HE is better than small HE + medium kinetic" and using a much better - and more OP-costly - kinetic in the small slot, compared to the average-quality small HE weapon, undermines that argument. You could use DLAC + Heavy Mauler instead of Heavy Mortar, or whatever; I don't think that aspect of it matters too much. Or you can assume the rest of the OP go into vents or other good stuff to improve the ship.
Well, it's not a direct comparison of individual weapons, but a comparison of how a combination of weapons work as a system.  Yes, a Railgun is more premium than a LAG.  However, a Heavy Autocannon is more premium than a Heavy Mortar.  Those two functionally cancel each other out, at least in terms of OP costs.  When I do builds I'm most concerned with how my "system" of weapon arrays performs with each other for a given OP cost, so comparing 2 systems with similar OP costs (Railgun+HM vs HAC+LAG) is more fair and intuitive IMO.

Re: LAGs in general
My main critique of it is its hefty flux cost.  160 dps is pretty great on paper, but it's small 40 damage shots, and even though they're HE hits it still takes little more than 450 armor (slightly more than light destroyer grade) to reduce it to the minimum 15% damage per hit.  That isn't inherently bad by itself, but LAGs are also the most flux-intensive small ballistics to run, as well as one of the most flux-intensive small weapons in the game.

1:1 flux:damage feels a lot less efficient than it actually is in this case since the gun can't rely on its armor penetration and often has to use sheer volume of fire to power through.  The weapon itself feels okay outside of its flux cost, which I don't feel is representative of the LAG's actual worth.  So if I were to tweak one thing off the LAG, I'd start by looking at its flux efficiency.
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SCC

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #773 on: March 10, 2021, 12:43:49 PM »

But then HE in general doesn't have many "premium" options like the Railgun/Needler. The old Heavy Mauler for example could combine nicely with large kinetics, and iirc it was often the go-to for many loadouts. But HE that's "too good" is more problematic than kinetics that are too good... so in that sense comparing the best-available options for each type does make sense, even if it's not an apples-to-apples comparison.weapons...
A part of the reason why HE weapons are preferred for bigger mounts is because kinetics have premium options for smaller mounts and HE guns don't, in addition to bigger mount size giving high explosives better hit strength (and so performance) by default, whereas bigger kinetics mostly get some more range and some more DPS.

Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #774 on: March 10, 2021, 12:47:36 PM »

I think you may be missing my point, which is that picking a premium kinetic in the smaller slot makes the combination more balanced. The HAC being a premium kinetic... I mean, first of all it's not! It's 10 OP, the baseline value for medium weapons. But even if it were, it doesn't matter, since it being premium would only make the combination more lopsided, since it's the larger slot.

I think would rather have the DLAC+Mortar at 13 OP than the Arbalest + LAG at 12. It takes a lot to overcome the additional hit strength on armor that a larger HE naturally produces.

That's a more fair and interesting comparison, yeah. I'm just saying, Railgun + Heavy Mortar is extremely good for additional, major reasons aside from hit strength.


Yes, a Railgun is more premium than a LAG.  However, a Heavy Autocannon is more premium than a Heavy Mortar.  Those two functionally cancel each other out, at least in terms of OP costs.

In terms of OP costs, yes. In terms of how they combine with the other, the Railgun being more premium makes the combination more balanced, while the HAC being relatively more premium makes the combination more lopsided. Which is my point, how balanced the combination is what really matters here, and the effect of these choices on *that* is the opposite of canceling out.

A part of the reason why HE weapons are preferred for bigger mounts is because kinetics have premium options for smaller mounts and HE guns don't, in addition to bigger mount size giving high explosives better hit strength (and so performance) by default, whereas bigger kinetics mostly get some more range and some more DPS.

Yeah, no argument there.

Edit: am I being unclear about the "balanced" thing here? I feel like this isn't complicated or controversial or even in opposition to the other points being raised, but it doesn't seem to be clicking, so I wonder if I'm just explaining it very poorly.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2021, 12:50:59 PM by Alex »
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Goumindong

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #775 on: March 10, 2021, 12:53:44 PM »

Why is DLAC+HM more fair for the HAC+LAG comparison than Railgun+HM?  A HAC+LAG combination is 15 OP.  DLAC+HM is only 12 OP, quite a bit lighter on the budget.  Railgun+HM is 14 OP, so it's much closer to the HAC+LAG combo (actually a bit cheaper, but close enough).

The argument being made here is that "small kinetic + medium HE is better than small HE + medium kinetic" and using a much better - and more OP-costly - kinetic in the small slot, compared to the average-quality small HE weapon, undermines that argument. You could use DLAC + Heavy Mauler instead of Heavy Mortar, or whatever; I don't think that aspect of it matters too much. Or you can assume the rest of the OP go into vents or other good stuff to improve the ship.
Well, it's not a direct comparison of individual weapons, but a comparison of how a combination of weapons work as a system.  Yes, a Railgun is more premium than a LAG.  However, a Heavy Autocannon is more premium than a Heavy Mortar.  Those two functionally cancel each other out, at least in terms of OP costs.  When I do builds I'm most concerned with how my "system" of weapon arrays performs with each other for a given OP cost, so comparing 2 systems with similar OP costs (Railgun+HM vs HAC+LAG) is more fair and intuitive IMO.

Re: LAGs in general
My main critique of it is its hefty flux cost.  160 dps is pretty great on paper, but it's small 40 damage shots, and even though they're HE hits it still takes little more than 450 armor (slightly more than light destroyer grade) to reduce it to the minimum 15% damage per hit.  That isn't inherently bad by itself, but LAGs are also the most flux-intensive small ballistics to run, as well as one of the most flux-intensive small weapons in the game.

1:1 flux:damage feels a lot less efficient than it actually is in this case since the gun can't rely on its armor penetration and often has to use sheer volume of fire to power through.  The weapon itself feels okay outside of its flux cost, which I don't feel is representative of the LAG's actual worth.  So if I were to tweak one thing off the LAG, I'd start by looking at its flux efficiency.

In general making a weapon use less flux and do less damage at the same time makes the weapon worse. You can always not fire a weapon and so reduce its dps and flux use. You cannot "superfire" a weapon and so increase its DPS and flux usage. LAG are really good(especially for ships like the Lasher), you just don't need a lot of them.

\


In terms of OP costs, yes. In terms of how they combine with the other, the Railgun being more premium makes the combination more balanced, while the HAC being relatively more premium makes the combination more lopsided. Which is my point, how balanced the combination is what really matters here, and the effect of these choices on *that* is the opposite of canceling out.


I am not sure why its more or less lopsided. Why is the kinetic medium being relatively more premium vs the light being relatively more premium make it more lopsided? In both instances its the kin weapon that is relatively more premium. In both instances there is a weapon that is relatively more premium... I could use a "premium" HE medium like the Assault Chaingun or the Mauler instead and pretty sure i will come to the same conclusion.

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Retry

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #776 on: March 10, 2021, 01:08:59 PM »

Why is DLAC+HM more fair for the HAC+LAG comparison than Railgun+HM?  A HAC+LAG combination is 15 OP.  DLAC+HM is only 12 OP, quite a bit lighter on the budget.  Railgun+HM is 14 OP, so it's much closer to the HAC+LAG combo (actually a bit cheaper, but close enough).

The argument being made here is that "small kinetic + medium HE is better than small HE + medium kinetic" and using a much better - and more OP-costly - kinetic in the small slot, compared to the average-quality small HE weapon, undermines that argument. You could use DLAC + Heavy Mauler instead of Heavy Mortar, or whatever; I don't think that aspect of it matters too much. Or you can assume the rest of the OP go into vents or other good stuff to improve the ship.
Well, it's not a direct comparison of individual weapons, but a comparison of how a combination of weapons work as a system.  Yes, a Railgun is more premium than a LAG.  However, a Heavy Autocannon is more premium than a Heavy Mortar.  Those two functionally cancel each other out, at least in terms of OP costs.  When I do builds I'm most concerned with how my "system" of weapon arrays performs with each other for a given OP cost, so comparing 2 systems with similar OP costs (Railgun+HM vs HAC+LAG) is more fair and intuitive IMO.

Re: LAGs in general
My main critique of it is its hefty flux cost.  160 dps is pretty great on paper, but it's small 40 damage shots, and even though they're HE hits it still takes little more than 450 armor (slightly more than light destroyer grade) to reduce it to the minimum 15% damage per hit.  That isn't inherently bad by itself, but LAGs are also the most flux-intensive small ballistics to run, as well as one of the most flux-intensive small weapons in the game.

1:1 flux:damage feels a lot less efficient than it actually is in this case since the gun can't rely on its armor penetration and often has to use sheer volume of fire to power through.  The weapon itself feels okay outside of its flux cost, which I don't feel is representative of the LAG's actual worth.  So if I were to tweak one thing off the LAG, I'd start by looking at its flux efficiency.

In general making a weapon use less flux and do less damage at the same time makes the weapon worse. You can always not fire a weapon and so reduce its dps and flux use. You cannot "superfire" a weapon and so increase its DPS and flux usage. LAG are really good(especially for ships like the Lasher), you just don't need a lot of them.
I didn't say make it do less damage, just more flux efficient (less flux cost).  SO Lasher works well with LAGs, which is less due to the LAG being good and more due to there simply being no other way for the Lasher to translate a lot of excess flux dissipation into HE damage.  Non-SO Lasher w/ LAG is workable but hampered by the flux overhead (as mentioned before), and because of that I've found some Light Mortars and a high-end kinetic simply compliments the Lasher better.
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #777 on: March 10, 2021, 01:22:13 PM »

I am not sure why its more or less lopsided. Why is the kinetic medium being relatively more premium vs the light being relatively more premium make it more lopsided? In both instances its the kin weapon that is relatively more premium. In both instances there is a weapon that is relatively more premium... I could use a "premium" HE medium like the Assault Chaingun or the Mauler instead and pretty sure i will come to the same conclusion.

Ahh, I think maybe I see what you mean. What I'm saying, in the simplest terms, is:
One weapon costs 7 OP, the other costs 7 OP = "balanced"
One weapon costs 5 OP, the other costs 10 OP = "lopsided".

So if the 10 OP weapon was more premium and cost 12 OP, then 5-to-12 would be even more lopsided, etc. Obviously the other stats of the weapon (range etc) matter, too, but just in general terms...
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Half-full

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #778 on: March 10, 2021, 02:06:45 PM »

I checked the list of changes and I didn't see anything about this. Maybe include some contingency for AI fleets to path to a planet that is close enough to its star that it's in the corona a lot of the time. I don't think this is an issue most of the time, but I sat around and started to get a traffic jam of fleets flowing to this planet in the spoiler.
Spoiler
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Goumindong

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #779 on: March 10, 2021, 02:29:28 PM »

I am not sure why its more or less lopsided. Why is the kinetic medium being relatively more premium vs the light being relatively more premium make it more lopsided? In both instances its the kin weapon that is relatively more premium. In both instances there is a weapon that is relatively more premium... I could use a "premium" HE medium like the Assault Chaingun or the Mauler instead and pretty sure i will come to the same conclusion.

Ahh, I think maybe I see what you mean. What I'm saying, in the simplest terms, is:
One weapon costs 7 OP, the other costs 7 OP = "balanced"
One weapon costs 5 OP, the other costs 10 OP = "lopsided".

So if the 10 OP weapon was more premium and cost 12 OP, then 5-to-12 would be even more lopsided, etc. Obviously the other stats of the weapon (range etc) matter, too, but just in general terms...

Maaaaybe. But ships that have split slots like this tend to have more of the smaller slots than the larger. So really i get to choose two small ballistic and one medium. So i can still have "10 OP" in each section by having two LAG and a HAC or 2 DLAC and an Assault Chaingun
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