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Author Topic: Starsector 0.95a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 600555 times)

Ishman

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #645 on: November 14, 2020, 01:02:06 PM »

Hmm. Well, one of them has "cryoarithmetic" in the name :)
Did you google what Landauer limit is or something?

This is a Revelation Space reference. https://revelationspace.fandom.com/wiki/Cryo-arithmetic_engine
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Arcagnello

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #646 on: November 15, 2020, 04:36:51 AM »

Ah, bugger. I guess my first 0.95a campaign whill have me feel extra painful for all those empty small mounts where a nice 1OP PD weapon could fit :P

Fair enough - but I'll just say that I don't see "having a 1 OP weapon that defaults into every empty small slot" as a good thing design-wise.

I'll agree to that statement wholeheartedly. Making a 1 OP PD weapon effective and self sufficient would not be the way to introduce anything.

The 3 different 1OP point defence weapons coming from different mods I have in my current campaign are more or less useless without being combined with any other more expensive (and substantial) PD weapons.
They also all more or less all require PDAI installed to even have a good enough tracking to use their pathetic DPS to shoot missiles down, making them a nice add-on to ships primarily dealing damage with their larger mounts and already using some medium mounts for PD.
Introducing something like that in Vanilla would work really well and not become the go-to option you reasonably argue they could become.
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Locklave

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #647 on: November 15, 2020, 09:50:27 AM »

"Nanoforges: add Pollution when installed; becomes permanent after three months"

Should be Heavy industry, not Nanoforges. If we are insisting on adding pollution. This is assuming Nanoforges are infact using Nanolithing, which one would think would be clean instead of the un-upgraded lower tech version of it that is Heavy industry.

Why is rare super tech producing pollution when low tech is clean? I don't agree with everything changed but this one thing feels counter intuitive to me.
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #648 on: November 15, 2020, 11:11:55 AM »

Quote
Why is rare super tech producing pollution when low tech is clean? I don't agree with everything changed but this one thing feels counter intuitive to me.
Low-tech appears to be eco-friendly clean, if both Ludd factions are any indication.

I have no problem with industries requiring nanoforge to wreck a habitable planet.  Pristine nanoforge cranks up production by a thousand-fold.  Plus, nanoforge of any kind raises Pather interest a lot, by +4 (in addition to +2 from the industry itself).
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Zelnik

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #649 on: November 15, 2020, 12:24:18 PM »

"Nanoforges: add Pollution when installed; becomes permanent after three months"

Should be Heavy industry, not Nanoforges. If we are insisting on adding pollution. This is assuming Nanoforges are infact using Nanolithing, which one would think would be clean instead of the un-upgraded lower tech version of it that is Heavy industry.

Why is rare super tech producing pollution when low tech is clean? I don't agree with everything changed but this one thing feels counter intuitive to me.


This.

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Locklave

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #650 on: November 15, 2020, 01:09:45 PM »

Quote
Why is rare super tech producing pollution when low tech is clean? I don't agree with everything changed but this one thing feels counter intuitive to me.
Low-tech appears to be eco-friendly clean, if both Ludd factions are any indication.

I have no problem with industries requiring nanoforge to wreck a habitable planet.  Pristine nanoforge cranks up production by a thousand-fold.  Plus, nanoforge of any kind raises Pather interest a lot, by +4 (in addition to +2 from the industry itself).

When your argument for something begins with "if both Ludd factions are any indication" the only logical direction should be the opposite of there indication must be correct. They are anti tech, they think wood burning is better then gas or electric, they are not green.

They are based off of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite loosely. They are religious, not environmentalists and I doubt very much that they'd care about destroying nature in the least if it suited their ideological extremes at a given moment.

A real world example now.

Newer power plants produce more energy with less pollution byproduct.
Higher tech = more efficient = more productive = less pollution

Pollution is waste/inefficiency. So super rare tech which is ultra efficient would naturally produce more without the pollution byproduct which is waste.

edit:
The Pathers are mad about production increases only.

edit 2:
The current game supports this tech efficiency concept.
The fuel burn relative speed/distance that can be travelled with equal fuel in High Tech ships vs Low Tech ships. High tech ships use less fuel and are faster, at the same time.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2020, 01:16:22 PM by Locklave »
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #651 on: November 15, 2020, 01:22:23 PM »

"Nanoforges: add Pollution when installed; becomes permanent after three months"

Should be Heavy industry, not Nanoforges. If we are insisting on adding pollution. This is assuming Nanoforges are infact using Nanolithing, which one would think would be clean instead of the un-upgraded lower tech version of it that is Heavy industry.

Why is rare super tech producing pollution when low tech is clean? I don't agree with everything changed but this one thing feels counter intuitive to me.

Functionally/mechanics wise, I think penalizing baseline Heavy Industry would be a bit harsh. Though really you'd most often be using both at the same time so...

In-fiction wise, I think this is another case of "you can have a reasonable explanation for whichever way the mechanics shake out". So, for example here - and IIRC this is referenced in the item descriptions? not 100% sure offhand - what a Nanoforge does is let the industry be built out at scale. It's not that all of the production is performed using nanites, but rather the incredible scaling up of the production capacity, as well as replacing key parts that wear out, and so on. That scaled-up production - as evidenced by the Pollution condition popping up - is not clean.

(Also, the argument that nanite-based production would be clean... it could easily go either way, depending on which direction one waves their hands in.)
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CoverdInBees

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #652 on: November 15, 2020, 01:28:55 PM »

<snip>

You're absolutely right, but after decades of, let's be lenient and say "selective use of facts" it's no suprise that "common knowledge" dictates otherwise.
IDK if a game like StarSector is the place to reeducate people on this by subverting their expectations. Technology equalling pollution and other bad things is basically a trope in settings like this, after all.
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #653 on: November 15, 2020, 02:58:55 PM »

@ Locklave: Pathers in the game feel either like eco-terrorists or generic evil cultists.  (Cells disappear when enough bad evil tech is removed.)  Starsector may not align with reality, where in the game lower tech is cleaner tech if the game mechanics effectively say so.

Quote
The Pathers are mad about production increases only.
They also get mad for adding enough aggravating industries on a world.  Trying to build a set of self-sufficient colonies without any Pather cells can be quite the puzzle.

Quote
The fuel burn relative speed/distance that can be travelled with equal fuel in High Tech ships vs Low Tech ships. High tech ships use less fuel and are faster, at the same time.
More like low-tech (combat ships) are fuel hogs, while many high-tech are CR (and maybe supply) hogs.  The faster ships apply to those that are on the light end of their class, which is shared by both midline (Falcon and Conquest) and high-tech (Shrike and Odyssey).

Functionally/mechanics wise, I think penalizing baseline Heavy Industry would be a bit harsh. Though really you'd most often be using both at the same time so...
I built extra Heavy Industries on additional planets, sometimes without nanoforges, just for increased production limit.  Nanoforges help on those but are not as necessary since I do not rely on them to meet demand.  Nanoforge would be wanted for the primary just for bonus to ship quality.  Got to have my pristine ships.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #654 on: November 15, 2020, 03:08:51 PM »

I don't think technological development is correlated with efficiency or pollution at all. Efficiency and pollution reduction are goals that technology can be developed for (or not). In recent history, we have developed a lot of technology with the goal of reducing pollution so it might seem like technological development leads to a reduction in pollution, but if you looked the industrial revolution, there was a lot of technological development that lead to increased pollution because our goals were different. In a lot of cases, we actually lose efficiency by implementing technology to reduce pollution (clean coal) because we are wasting some energy to deal with the byproducts of the energy generation process. Nuclear power is the same way, there is actually some really nasty waste generated, but we implement technology to eliminate or contain it that reduces the overall efficiency of the energy generation process.

As a side note, pollution is not necessarily inefficiency, it's just the byproduct of reactions being released into the environment. It can be reduced by improving the chemical process to generate less byproducts or by containing/dealing with the byproducts. Perfectly efficient combustion still generates byproducts. Very few reactions actually have zero negative byproducts, even at perfect efficiency (maybe nuclear fusion or hydrogen + oxygen combustion).
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Squigzilla

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #655 on: November 15, 2020, 05:04:07 PM »

I'm super excited for new missions and sorry content, as that's where I feel the game was most calling out for an expansion. New ships are always a treat as well, I'm curious how they will feel collated to the existing stable of warships.

I've been playing Starsector since before there was a campaign, and it keeps getting better with each release. I'll be eagerly awaiting the next update!
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Zelnik

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #656 on: November 15, 2020, 07:38:08 PM »

I don't think technological development is correlated with efficiency or pollution at all. Efficiency and pollution reduction are goals that technology can be developed for (or not). In recent history, we have developed a lot of technology with the goal of reducing pollution so it might seem like technological development leads to a reduction in pollution, but if you looked the industrial revolution, there was a lot of technological development that lead to increased pollution because our goals were different. In a lot of cases, we actually lose efficiency by implementing technology to reduce pollution (clean coal) because we are wasting some energy to deal with the byproducts of the energy generation process. Nuclear power is the same way, there is actually some really nasty waste generated, but we implement technology to eliminate or contain it that reduces the overall efficiency of the energy generation process.




There is a flaw to this. If these are nanotechnology with the proper tiny machines building things at the molecular level, it means that any and all byproducts can and would be created in a manner that would make them non-waste. A good example is, say, cyanide.


Nanomachines could turn the harmful chemical into something useful before it became an environmental hazard. Carbon dioxide could be turned into O2 and pure diamonds, methane could be converted into plastics. With real nanomachines there is no such thing as waste.

As a side note, pollution is not necessarily inefficiency, it's just the byproduct of reactions being released into the environment. It can be reduced by improving the chemical process to generate less byproducts or by containing/dealing with the byproducts. Perfectly efficient combustion still generates byproducts. Very few reactions actually have zero negative byproducts, even at perfect efficiency (maybe nuclear fusion or hydrogen + oxygen combustion).
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Retry

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #657 on: November 15, 2020, 08:24:49 PM »

I think the intent of the nanoforges causing pollution is one for gameplay considerations, rather than realism.  Though, it does sound like it's putting the Corrupted Nanoforge in a rather rough spot.

+1 to Heavy Industry production is a nice small bonus when taken by itself.  But that +25% hazard rating hits the upkeep cost of every structure you have, not to mention the ones you build afterwards, and upkeep scales linearly with colony size.  In terms of economic profit, that could make installing Corrupted Nanoforges neutralize their own productivity, if not make them outright counterproductive.  So then you're basically only using them if you really want to expand production cap or reduce production D-Mods, but in the latter case there's no benefit once you have a Pristine variant, in which case the only effective benefit of having duplicate Heavy Machineries w/ spare Corrupted Nanoforges is a slightly improved production cap, which seems rather niche.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2020, 08:27:13 PM by Retry »
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SonnaBanana

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #658 on: November 15, 2020, 09:48:55 PM »

Maybe just debuff Pollution in general?
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Sabaton

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #659 on: November 15, 2020, 10:28:46 PM »

Cryoarithmetic? So colonizing a frozen hell will be more interesting...I assume we will see some polar opposite as well.

On the topic of high tech=lower pollution, think about it like Henry Fords assembly line: it made manufacturing cars easier, thus increasing their availability and carbon pollution. The assembly line wasn't the cause for pollution spikes, its manufactured goods were.

Same for nanoforges, they might be efficient but the produced goods (all manner of heavy machinery and consumer goods) will still generate waste. It sounds plausible.

Also, good cache about corrupted forges Retry, that might turn them into something you only install on a smaller secondary colony, given that the future update will make it easier to control/fix colony grouth.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2020, 10:37:01 PM by Sabaton »
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