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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Starsector 0.95a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 595751 times)

Melanoc3tus II

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #360 on: October 22, 2020, 01:02:14 PM »

I see what you're saying, yeah. My counter-point is that for me, 10^6 is very much already stretching the bounds of believability, especially in the timeframes involved.

Real-life migrations, like the one caused by the Syrian civil war, already are on the magnitude of beyond 10^6 today. Tens of millions were displaced within a few years during WW2.
So when assuming future technology for automated construction, 10^7 sounds reasonable to me.

That's for countries in constant war. The majority of the Sector's population resides within the Hegemony, a secure, orderly authoritarian state. Why would they move in the first place?
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SCC

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #361 on: October 22, 2020, 01:07:34 PM »

By the way, will factions start with some of those nanoforge-but-for-other-industries items used? It would give some incentive to raid factions besides blueprints, nanoforges and synchrotrons.

sqrt(-1)

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #362 on: October 22, 2020, 01:15:12 PM »

I see what you're saying, yeah. My counter-point is that for me, 10^6 is very much already stretching the bounds of believability, especially in the timeframes involved.

Real-life migrations, like the one caused by the Syrian civil war, already are on the magnitude of beyond 10^6 today. Tens of millions were displaced within a few years during WW2.
So when assuming future technology for automated construction, 10^7 sounds reasonable to me.

That's for countries in constant war. The majority of the Sector's population resides within the Hegemony, a secure, orderly authoritarian state. Why would they move in the first place?

What makes the game's story background so great is that large parts of the sector are in chaos after the gates shut down. Hundreds of once heavily populated planets are in ruins.
So I would in fact find it unrealistic that solely 10^6 people would be attracted to a new jewel of prosperity. Again, we are talking about entire planets, not just countries as in the present and historic earth.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2020, 01:20:50 PM by sqrt(-1) »
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shoi

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #363 on: October 22, 2020, 01:23:33 PM »

i dont get why you guys are still debating colonies, just raise it in the setting file if you disagree
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #364 on: October 22, 2020, 01:27:48 PM »

I mean if your whole idea is that the sector is super chaotic and run down, then you should find it very unrealistic that you can make a colony a 'jewel of prosperity' in only a few years. Why has no one else done that if you can do it so easily? It's much more believable that your colony is just as run down as everywhere else. Also, the sector has less population than current earth. Our earth has 10^9 population and the largest world in the Persian sector has 10^8. Most worlds in the sector have the population of an earth city or less. Most countries on earth would be size 7-8 worlds. China and India would be size 9 worlds.
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FooF

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #365 on: October 22, 2020, 01:34:50 PM »

I find the colony debate strange. The Sector, as a whole, is on the decline so multiple 10^7 colonies or more popping up randomly makes little sense.

I couldn't care less what the arbitrary cap is to colonies as long as colonies operate, mechanically, the same. I think it odd that there is an expectation for a colony to grow from 1,000 to over 10 million or more in the span of 10-15 years. Soft caps or no, I know I won't be playing 30 in-game years just to see a colony go from 10^7 to 10^8, especially considering there is no in-game benefit for doing so. There's no realism to be achieved here so an arbitrary value doesn't bother me in the least.

I don't understand the fixation, honestly. It's an immersion thing, sure, but there are way bigger fish to fry.
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CoverdInBees

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #366 on: October 22, 2020, 01:40:36 PM »


That's for countries in constant war. The majority of the Sector's population resides within the Hegemony, a secure, orderly authoritarian state. Why would they move in the first place?

This. The larger worlds (where the mayority by far lives, thanks to the 10^X way of size increases) are pretty stable as far as the game mechanics are concerned in the first place. They can ward off the pirate raids.

Add to that that moving to another planet is something very different than moving to a neighboring region, or the neighboring country, or even to keep going untill you hit the North Sea, especially in a game world that is in enough chaos and decline that getting a ticket on a Nebula transport is probably out of reach of the most desperate of the masses.
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #367 on: October 22, 2020, 02:09:10 PM »

If a core world somehow drops to or below 10^6 (I forget if this is possible in vanilla), is it "allowed" to go above it again? If so, is there something that clearly distinguishes planets with and without this permission to exceed the cap?

Non-player colonies don't grow, so this doesn't really apply.

By the way, will factions start with some of those nanoforge-but-for-other-industries items used? It would give some incentive to raid factions besides blueprints, nanoforges and synchrotrons.

IIRC there's a few cases where they do - where needed to make the economy "work" as far as the core worlds producing enough stuff for their demand, or at least close to it - but not generally for every type of item.


I find the colony debate strange. The Sector, as a whole, is on the decline so multiple 10^7 colonies or more popping up randomly makes little sense.

I couldn't care less what the arbitrary cap is to colonies as long as colonies operate, mechanically, the same. I think it odd that there is an expectation for a colony to grow from 1,000 to over 10 million or more in the span of 10-15 years. Soft caps or no, I know I won't be playing 30 in-game years just to see a colony go from 10^7 to 10^8, especially considering there is no in-game benefit for doing so. There's no realism to be achieved here so an arbitrary value doesn't bother me in the least.

I don't understand the fixation, honestly. It's an immersion thing, sure, but there are way bigger fish to fry.

On the whole, this sums up how I actually feel about it extremely well. I don't want to dismiss anyone's concerns, but past a certain point, it's a subjective "feel" thing, and trying to argue about it - in either direction! - is not very productive. And mechanically, the limit of 6 works with the new stuff.
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #368 on: October 22, 2020, 02:20:09 PM »

What is less believable?
Becoming the safe heaven in 25 cycles, attracting the 1/10th of the Sector's population, or creating a fleet that could wipe out the Core Worlds...?
Because the latter is very much possible in 10-15 cycles...
Player can build a core killer fleet in less than five cycles.  It is easier to obtain this fleet and bomb the core worlds to death than a fleet that can kill the strongest endgame enemy fleets.  The fleets that guard even capital core worlds are roughly on par with 200k bounties, while expedition/named bounty fleets are 300+k.  The only fight that is remotely challenging is the TT capital world because the high-tech star fortress can get cheap kills with long-range mine spam.

Core worlds have inadequate defenses.  More so if caught while pirates raid the system.
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SCC

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #369 on: October 22, 2020, 02:28:23 PM »

IIRC there's a few cases where they do - where needed to make the economy "work" as far as the core worlds producing enough stuff for their demand, or at least close to it - but not generally for every type of item.
If you don't want all of them to be available in every run, you can make them random instead.

What is less believable?
Becoming the safe heaven in 25 cycles, attracting the 1/10th of the Sector's population, or creating a fleet that could wipe out the Core Worlds...?
Because the latter is very much possible in 10-15 cycles...
Player can build a core killer fleet in less than five cycles.  It is easier to obtain this fleet and bomb the core worlds to death than a fleet that can kill the strongest endgame enemy fleets.
The time to obtain a sector-destroying fleet is the time to obtain a Paragon and a Conquest. Paragon can destroy any station and Conquest can destroy any fleet. I wonder how fast could I get those, if I used every trick in the book...

FAX

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #370 on: October 22, 2020, 07:35:09 PM »

I'm wondering is there anything related to Doom-class in 0.95? ;) beside Tweaked Mine Strike ship system AI.
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Serenitis

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #371 on: October 23, 2020, 12:55:54 AM »

Being able to create a colony, build an industy, and then drop an item on it & instantly outcompete most of the sector for production feels like far more of an issue than a number not changing tbh.

Industry items are a flat bonus, which is disproportionately good early on.
Maybe it might be worth considering scaling the industry items boosts with the output of said industry?


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TerranEmpire

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #372 on: October 23, 2020, 01:59:08 AM »

I stated, that the colony thing is strictly a believability issue for those who attack it.
At least that's my take...

And the reason we still debate it is that's it on the edge of believability when you think about a ~25 cycle playthrough.
No one really complains about size 9 or 10. We all get it. But size 7 might seem plausible.

Of course, as I said, the total core elimination in a few cycles is a much greater problem.
@Alex

Btw I could very much imagine 10^7 migration towards your colonies in just a few years if you start to eliminate every world and apparently no one can stop you. If I were a Core World citizen I would definitely pack up and move to the only faction expected to survive...

So if we really want to cap the colonies based on lore-related arguments, we should definitely fix the balance of power issue.
For me, this kind of disparity just breaks the immersion. No one would sit and wait until everything is destroyed. If they can't defend their population, they wouldn't just give up, they would definitely move towards the last faction standing.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2020, 02:00:42 AM by TerranEmpire »
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Gothars

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #373 on: October 23, 2020, 02:49:07 AM »

@Alex

Btw I could very much imagine 10^7 migration

The man made pretty clear that it's a matter of opinion and that he wont change his. It's time to let it go, before the line between discussion and campaigning becomes blurry.
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The game was completed 8 years ago and we get a free expansion every year.

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Grievous69

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #374 on: October 23, 2020, 02:53:30 AM »

Yea it's weird to me how so many people got annoyed by that change, but hey it's easily moddable.

Anyways I forgot to ask one more thing. Will we get new ships in the simulator to test against? I know this is super minor and not important as the rest but it's nice to have a wider array of opponents you can test your build versus. Also please add the new combat ships to the random mission, thanks.
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