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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Starsector 0.95a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 595858 times)

Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #270 on: October 20, 2020, 04:47:41 PM »

Hmm? The Dominator is 450, and the Onslaught is 600. Is that not what you're seeing in 0.9.1a? In other words, did I buff that aspect of it and forget about it?
...Huh. Yup, looks like I goofed somehow, those are definitely the correct values. Not sure where I got that notion from, then.

Ah, whew. I wonder if maybe increasing the efficiency of the TPC slightly might not help It's not *bad* at 0.8, but it's still energy damage on an otherwise-ballistic ship, so I wonder if .6 might not be more appropriate. That would bring it almost to the level of kinetc/HE vs their specialized targets, though...
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #271 on: October 20, 2020, 05:09:11 PM »

Even with 0.8 efficiency, there are times I wish I can rip out TPCs on AI Onslaughts because they love to fire the whole clip and be near max flux after emptying both TPCs.  (It is more tolerable if TPCs are alternating.)  I do not consider Expanded Magazines on Onslaught because AI is too trigger-happy with TPCs.  And they fire them while firing the rest of the guns, and it is hard enough trying to not exceed dissipation too much.

More efficient TPCs would be useful to mitigate trigger-happy AI.
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AsterPiano

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #272 on: October 20, 2020, 05:14:46 PM »

My initial though is you'd be less locked in due to being able to re-spec

Wait, you're going to be able to re-spec in the next update!? Did I misread? Did I miss/forget some patch note or blog post?
(If you can, that sounds pretty nice even if it takes story points to do it)
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ProfessionalHuman

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #273 on: October 20, 2020, 05:16:08 PM »

@ ProfessionalHuman: Welcome to the forum! The control scheme you are proposing has actually been tried early on, but was found to be disorienting. You can read more here, if you like: http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8643.0
So, after reading http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8643.0 and watching some examples of games that use this approach i came to a conclusion that fixing camera to a ship actually doesn't work as well as i thouth. Thanks for providing a link to that discussion.

But there is one thing that wasn't mentioned in that discussion. As i observed, when game chooses in wich direction to propell the ship it takes into account direction to where its nose pointing. What if there was a button that removes ships nose direction from equation? So then if i press "A" ship will always strafe to the left, if i press "D" ship will always strafe to the right, and so on. That could also make piloting broadside ships easier.

If that was changed and the keys mean "move north/south/west/east" instead then how do you see that working when your ship is pointed diagonally? Should the ship just half move forward/half strafe? Changing this would mean you can just move into 8 directions too.
I assume that technically the ship will "just move" in desired direction. On screen you of course will see that both side and main engines are firing.
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #274 on: October 20, 2020, 05:18:39 PM »

Re-spec is in the July 2019 blog post.  It costs a story point to re-spec.

Quote
A few skills are permanent and can’t be reassigned; these are ones with effects that would either leave the game in an invalid state if the player had the skill and subsequently didn’t, or just ones that make it optimal to get the skill, use it, and then refund it.
I like to know how many such perma-skills are there.  Would like to know if the skill I want is permanent before I spend a point on it.  No fun stepping on a landmine by trying to re-spec the skill away only to learn "too late, you can't".
« Last Edit: October 20, 2020, 05:21:14 PM by Megas »
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bowman

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #275 on: October 20, 2020, 05:38:40 PM »

It's odd to me that colony max size being changed is such a strong discussion point.

First of all, the patchnotes themselves mentioned it's in the configs. You can literally just change the number back to 10. I can understand the desire for it to be inherently supported (as it has ramifications in other systems) and also simply not wanting to remember to edit the config whenever you install the game or what-have-you, but even then it doesn't seem like this should be that big a deal. I would agree, though, that it would be cooler if there were special missions like linking a cryosleeper to a single planet in order to increase it past size 6, but if it's dev time for that versus the actual story.. I think I'd prefer the story? Particularly given that can come later, or from mods, anyway.

On top of that, while we obviously don't have the exacts, from what Alex has said and the patchnotes it seems to me colonies aren't really expected to be reduced in strength compared to the previous top-tier. In fact, it sounds like they may have gone up if you find the right "nanoforge-esque" item. I know for a fact he mentioned one of them "significantly" increases patrol fleet size. Even in the case that their strength does go down, I imagine all the other system changes have shifted what is necessary for defense- though whether that's up or down I've no idea. Once playtesting comes around I imagine he'll tweak the numbers however necessary- though the comments will make that decision more informed, of course.

The way I see it, this is more like renaming the top tier from 10 to 6, simply because the number better fits the numbers in the rest of the game. It's perhaps like if onslaught had 400 LY of fuel range or something equally ridiculous and he went in and realized "oh, that's not really the same magnitude as anything else let's just fix that- clearly should only be 40, just put an extra zero on accident". Not the best example but hopefully the idea is clear.
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SafariJohn

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #276 on: October 20, 2020, 05:52:32 PM »

Do combat skills really make that much of a difference ????

As stated, in the beginning your flagship is most of your fleet's firepower. In the late game, a capital flagship can easily be 1/3 of your DP on the field, so Combat skills remain very powerful.
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #277 on: October 20, 2020, 06:02:41 PM »

Ah, whew. I wonder if maybe increasing the efficiency of the TPC slightly might not help It's not *bad* at 0.8, but it's still energy damage on an otherwise-ballistic ship, so I wonder if .6 might not be more appropriate. That would bring it almost to the level of kinetc/HE vs their specialized targets, though...

I'll point out, you can't swap out the TPC for their specialized variants (kinetic/HE).  They also can't be acquired in any other way than on an Onslaught.  So the question of TPC efficiency relative to kinetic and high explosive weapons is irrelevant.  There's no substitution or decision to be made.  Its not like you get to pick TPC over a Storm Needler or a Hellbore cannon.  TPC stats have to be considered in combination with the Onslaught itself.  The question is, does their current efficiency make the Onslaught too strong, too weak, or just right? 

Given the Onslaught has 5 large weapon mounts on a base 600 flux budget, it really favors multiple low flux cost, high efficiency, low damage weapons.  TPCs as 20 clip weapons at 200 flux per shot are not low flux cost weapons.  8000 flux in 4 seconds is a little under half base flux pool, and takes ~13 seconds to dissipate at base dissipation.  Its really painful to watch when half the shots miss because the target ship is too small for both to hit.  If you don't think 0.6 efficiency will break the balance of the ship itself, I'd suggest tweaking it to 0.6 and see how it plays out in the 0.95 release.
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #278 on: October 20, 2020, 06:12:34 PM »

But there is one thing that wasn't mentioned in that discussion. As i observed, when game chooses in wich direction to propell the ship it takes into account direction to where its nose pointing. What if there was a button that removes ships nose direction from equation? So then if i press "A" ship will always strafe to the left, if i press "D" ship will always strafe to the right, and so on. That could also make piloting broadside ships easier.

If that was changed and the keys mean "move north/south/west/east" instead then how do you see that working when your ship is pointed diagonally? Should the ship just half move forward/half strafe? Changing this would mean you can just move into 8 directions too.
I assume that technically the ship will "just move" in desired direction. On screen you of course will see that both side and main engines are firing.

I tried that at one point, actually! The problem is, it's hard to - regardless of the ship's facing - e.g. make it move "up the screen" with some combination of valid ship engine control inputs, especially considering that a ship's acceleration values are different depending on whether it's strafing, backing off, or accelerating forward. Making it work in a pleasing way would require "cheating", basically - having it move in a way that couldn't be achieved with how the ship's engine works in-game. And even then, I don't think it's a great fit for this game, since you'd be limited to 8 directions, which is... I think it's just too arcade-like for how the game plays.


I like to know how many such perma-skills are there.  Would like to know if the skill I want is permanent before I spend a point on it.  No fun stepping on a landmine by trying to re-spec the skill away only to learn "too late, you can't".

Off the top of my head, I think maybe 4? It tells you which skills are permanent, of course!


I'll point out, you can't swap out the TPC for their specialized variants (kinetic/HE).  They also can't be acquired in any other way than on an Onslaught.  So the question of TPC efficiency relative to kinetic and high explosive weapons is irrelevant.  There's no substitution or decision to be made.  Its not like you get to pick TPC over a Storm Needler or a Hellbore cannon.  TPC stats have to be considered in combination with the Onslaught itself.  The question is, does their current efficiency make the Onslaught too strong, too weak, or just right? 

Given the Onslaught has 5 large weapon mounts on a base 600 flux budget, it really favors multiple low flux cost, high efficiency, low damage weapons.  TPCs as 20 clip weapons at 200 flux per shot are not low flux cost weapons.  8000 flux in 4 seconds is a little under half base flux pool, and takes ~13 seconds to dissipate at base dissipation.  Its really painful to watch when half the shots miss because the target ship is too small for both to hit.  If you don't think 0.6 efficiency will break the balance of the ship itself, I'd suggest tweaking it to 0.6 and see how it plays out in the 0.95 release.

Right, yeah - what I meant is that it might feel weird for the Onslaught to have the most efficient energy weapon in the game, so it's not really a mechanical concern - as you say, mechanics-wise, it's a non-issue. And, really, this *is* a point where mechanics beat feel pretty clearly. And the point about it missing a lot is a sound one.

Ah, why not - let's give this a try; set it to 150/shot.
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CoverdInBees

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #279 on: October 20, 2020, 06:53:07 PM »

Oh, since the Onslaught is being discussed again, and since that's one of the ships for which it would be the most useful, i just remembered.

Will we be able to go beyond 5 weapon groups next patch? I've seen it being suggested and discussed a couple of times but can't remember if you (Alex) weighed in on it or not, and if so what your opinion on it was.
Does seem like something that might easily have slipped the patch notes even you implemented it.

Do combat skills really make that much of a difference ???? They never seemed worth it to me, at least on paper, over the skill that get me a faster, cheaper, better, more resourceful, etc., etc. <snip>

Individually they may not seem that strong (well, some of them are) but if you take a bunch together it really adds up. Or in the case that there's really good synergy multiplies might be the better word.
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bowman

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #280 on: October 20, 2020, 06:57:04 PM »

Out of curiosity, are there any new sindrian diktat variants (Or faction-specific variants in general)?

I half expect a simple  :-X tbh but might as well ask  ::)

The anticipation is palpable for .95

Edit: I second the 5+ weapon slots question
It's mainly useful for organization but is also nice for flux management with autofire.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2020, 06:59:28 PM by bowman »
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #281 on: October 20, 2020, 07:09:08 PM »

Right, yeah - what I meant is that it might feel weird for the Onslaught to have the most efficient energy weapon in the game, so it's not really a mechanical concern - as you say, mechanics-wise, it's a non-issue. And, really, this *is* a point where mechanics beat feel pretty clearly. And the point about it missing a lot is a sound one.

Ah, why not - let's give this a try; set it to 150/shot.
TPCs also have the most range of any hard-flux energy (mount) weapon by far.  1000 beats 700.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2020, 07:10:54 PM by Megas »
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Phrosperatus

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #282 on: October 20, 2020, 07:10:26 PM »

A new button for toggling the function temporarily would be the option i wish to be implemented. Making it an optional toggleable function would be also really helpful.

Yeah, I understand what you mean!

May you please consider implementing combinations. For example by default C is decelerate.
I wish to use W+S or A+D or E+D or Q+A key combinations which otherwise doesn't really make sense to be used / be pressed / holded down together for that.
I'm sorry if I bothered you with these requests and thank you for considering implementing any of these and again for developing StarSector.

I don't think that would work very well - it's pretty complicated, but also, most keyboards have a hardware limit on the number of nearby keys that they can registered as "pressed" at the same time. So, for example, if you're holding W+S, presses of Q, A, E, D, and some (but not all!) other nearby keys will not register. Again, this is a hardware thing; those input events just won't get generated. So requiring additional key presses like that is asking for trouble.
Thank you for your responses and sharing your thoughts on the matter and sorry again for these requests.
I really like the controls of the ship. Combat is fun.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2020, 07:12:27 PM by Phrosperatus »
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #283 on: October 20, 2020, 07:22:53 PM »

Will we be able to go beyond 5 weapon groups next patch? I've seen it being suggested and discussed a couple of times but can't remember if you (Alex) weighed in on it or not, and if so what your opinion on it was.
Does seem like something that might easily have slipped the patch notes even you implemented it.

Nope! It's just enough of a pain to do that I'm hesitant to "just do it".

Out of curiosity, are there any new sindrian diktat variants (Or faction-specific variants in general)?

I half expect a simple  :-X tbh but might as well ask  ::)

Hmm, definitely not for the Diktat (though that's something we talked about at some point internally, I think), and not that I can recall for other faction-specific variants.

TPCs also have the most range of any hard-flux energy (mount) weapon by far.  1000 beats 700.

Yeah, good point there.


Thank you for your responses and sharing your thoughts on the matter and sorry again for these requests.
I really like the controls of the ship. Combat is fun.

No worries about the requests! Sorry I'm saying "no" all the time :)

Happy you're enjoying the game, though!
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #284 on: October 20, 2020, 07:49:57 PM »

I think you have to be very careful about buffing TPC efficiency. It hits quite hard against armor/hull so you kinda have to block with shields unlike kinetics with similar efficiency. Maybe there's a balance point somewhere in there though. I think a big part of the problem is actually the range. TPC outranges kinetics so the onslaught has often already spent half its flux pool on TPCs before it can even use the kinetics that might compensate for its weaker flux stats.

edit:
Maybe reducing clip size might be a buff. Even like 5 shot burst that recharges every couple seconds rather than a big magazine that refills over time.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2020, 07:55:05 PM by intrinsic_parity »
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