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Author Topic: Starsector 0.95a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 621716 times)

Helldiver

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #930 on: March 22, 2021, 06:56:24 PM »

Meaning the player fleet's maximum cargo capacity? If so I'm not sure what the idea behind this change is. Exceeding cargo limits is not viable in any circumstances (unless the hideous supplies/day penalty got changed I suppose) and periodically/occasionally swapping out hullmods to make more room to take delivery missions sounds like busywork.

Right. The player might pick up another freighter, or as you said add some hullmods, etc. Just in general I think that happening a bit will make it both feel like a bigger opportunity and less like it's all tailored to the player.

I think having missions less "tailored" to the player is very good. It makes the game's world feel less artificial and less like a tutorial that holds your hand with scaling difficulty. And it can push the player to grab what they can and attempt the mission for a big early payout.
Playing with mods, I commonly swap logistics mods and/or grab an extra freighter on the cheap if I see a juicy trade mission pop, I don't have the cargo cap for it (either because it's early game, I wasn't expecting a big trade deal or I've lost ships recently) and I don't want to risk missing it.
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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #931 on: March 22, 2021, 08:56:13 PM »

Err... doesn't that already happen?  Currently, quite a few (if not most) transport contracts end up requesting more materials than I can feasibly carry, since I need to keep a healthy helping of supplies and heavy machinery at bare minimum.  Even if I've just finished offloading surplus materials and salvage at that particular colony, it's still little more than a die roll if I actually have the spare cargo space to run a contract.
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Rain

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #932 on: March 22, 2021, 11:58:23 PM »

I guess it might mean in absolute terms? As in, if your max capacity is X, it currently won't generate missions asking you to ship more than X (but may result in supplies + machinery + cargo > X) while after the update it can now occasionally ask you to move more than X?
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EclipseRanger

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #933 on: March 23, 2021, 01:27:55 AM »

Meaning the player fleet's maximum cargo capacity? If so I'm not sure what the idea behind this change is. Exceeding cargo limits is not viable in any circumstances (unless the hideous supplies/day penalty got changed I suppose) and periodically/occasionally swapping out hullmods to make more room to take delivery missions sounds like busywork.

Right. The player might pick up another freighter, or as you said add some hullmods, etc. Just in general I think that happening a bit will make it both feel like a bigger opportunity and less like it's all tailored to the player.

I think having missions less "tailored" to the player is very good. It makes the game's world feel less artificial and less like a tutorial that holds your hand with scaling difficulty. And it can push the player to grab what they can and attempt the mission for a big early payout.
Playing with mods, I commonly swap logistics mods and/or grab an extra freighter on the cheap if I see a juicy trade mission pop, I don't have the cargo cap for it (either because it's early game, I wasn't expecting a big trade deal or I've lost ships recently) and I don't want to risk missing it.

Agreed.As Alex has mentioned before,game mechanics are identical between the player and the AI wherever possible.IMO,that's an excellent approach; we should be part of the world,not its god.Not to mention,making trade missions demand more capacity of the player will probably encourage using the new Converted Fighter Bays mod and/or combat freighters(Drover,Condor,Gemini),so your fleet still has bite in case something goes wrong in the trip.Like an actual merchant captain in a Sector in war.

On the same general subject,I wonder if there are plans to add more reactive elements in the game.Like the major factions banding together or forming a bigger defense fleet if you start genociding half the Sector.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2021, 02:37:34 AM by EclipseRanger »
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AcaMetis

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #934 on: March 23, 2021, 04:30:58 AM »

I guess it might mean in absolute terms? As in, if your max capacity is X, it currently won't generate missions asking you to ship more than X (but may result in supplies + machinery + cargo > X) while after the update it can now occasionally ask you to move more than X?
That was my interpretation, and past a certain point I can't see myself picking up more ships just to take a big shipping contract, and constantly moving hullmods around just sounds like a hassle, in which case why offer the contract at all? It doesn't add anything to the gameplay like a murderously powerful bounty I couldn't dream of doing does. If I can pick up an extra Shepard or Wayfarer early game to do a big shipping job, or upgrade a frigate freighter to a destroyer-sized one, sure, that's progress (assuming suitable ships are actually available for purchase). But if I'm flying around with as many ships as I'm ever going to want and/or fit in my (soft capped at 30) fleet than what's the point of offering bigger contracts than my fleet can carry? Gameplay wise it's just a waste of time, and I can't see it making sense in universe either if I can get asked to, say, deliver over 80K food to any place once I'm flying around 30 Expanded Cargo Hold Atlases. Even Chico I've never seen ask for more than 30K food at once, so I'd be very curious to know what a size 4 or even size 3 colony would need with over double that amount of food.

Quote
Agreed.As Alex has mentioned before,game mechanics are identical between the player and the AI wherever possible.IMO,that's an excellent approach; we should be part of the world,not its god.Not to mention,making trade missions demand more capacity of the player will probably encourage using the new Converted Fighter Bays mod and/or combat freighters(Drover,Condor,Gemini),so your fleet still has bite in case something goes wrong in the trip.Like an actual merchant captain in a Sector in war.
My concern is that the game will consistently generate delivery contracts which exceed your capacity even after defanging your fleet and/or putting a greater focus on (combat) freighters, or even reaching your final 30 endgame ships. Leaving you with tedious hullmod micromanagement to trick the game into generating contracts you can actually handle (and more tedious hullmod micromanagement to expand your holds again afterwards). I can't imagine that being fun, not when the game could just limit itself to contracts you can actually handle. Which I personally wouldn't see as the game treating you as a god, I'd see it as the game glossing over details which the player doesn't need to know. I can imagine those people in bars stuck in a bind being in charge of more than one shipping deal, only offering work which I can actually do and which they think I would see as worth my time. I don't need to be offered a delivery contract which takes five more Atlas ships than my fleet can support to know such contracts exist, the AI merchant fleet leaving the planet and flying off to wherever with lots of goodies (and escorts...) does that already.

My current exploration fleet involves Expanded Cargo Hold/Efficiency Overhaul pirate Mules being used as "combat" ships anyway, I don't know how much more budget I can cut short of going into battle with actual Buffaloes(?)...
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Helldiver

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #935 on: March 23, 2021, 07:52:12 AM »

That was my interpretation, and past a certain point I can't see myself picking up more ships just to take a big shipping contract, and constantly moving hullmods around just sounds like a hassle, in which case why offer the contract at all? It doesn't add anything to the gameplay like a murderously powerful bounty I couldn't dream of doing does. If I can pick up an extra Shepard or Wayfarer early game to do a big shipping job, or upgrade a frigate freighter to a destroyer-sized one, sure, that's progress (assuming suitable ships are actually available for purchase). But if I'm flying around with as many ships as I'm ever going to want and/or fit in my (soft capped at 30) fleet than what's the point of offering bigger contracts than my fleet can carry? Gameplay wise it's just a waste of time, and I can't see it making sense in universe either if I can get asked to, say, deliver over 80K food to any place once I'm flying around 30 Expanded Cargo Hold Atlases. Even Chico I've never seen ask for more than 30K food at once, so I'd be very curious to know what a size 4 or even size 3 colony would need with over double that amount of food.

My concern is that the game will consistently generate delivery contracts which exceed your capacity even after defanging your fleet and/or putting a greater focus on (combat) freighters, or even reaching your final 30 endgame ships. Leaving you with tedious hullmod micromanagement to trick the game into generating contracts you can actually handle (and more tedious hullmod micromanagement to expand your holds again afterwards). I can't imagine that being fun, not when the game could just limit itself to contracts you can actually handle. Which I personally wouldn't see as the game treating you as a god, I'd see it as the game glossing over details which the player doesn't need to know. I can imagine those people in bars stuck in a bind being in charge of more than one shipping deal, only offering work which I can actually do and which they think I would see as worth my time. I don't need to be offered a delivery contract which takes five more Atlas ships than my fleet can support to know such contracts exist, the AI merchant fleet leaving the planet and flying off to wherever with lots of goodies (and escorts...) does that already.

My current exploration fleet involves Expanded Cargo Hold/Efficiency Overhaul pirate Mules being used as "combat" ships anyway, I don't know how much more budget I can cut short of going into battle with actual Buffaloes(?)...

I think that you're going to the other extreme as if the game would only give you contracts you "can't do". The game can have a variety of contracts and you grab the ones you want based on what you plan on doing. Small trade contract and you have small capacity? Grab it if you want that money and it lines up with what you wanna do. Big contract and you have the capacity? Same thing. Big contract and you don't have the capacity? Up to you to take it based on what you can do to fulfill the requirement and other factors. Heck why am I writing this out?

The game doesn't have to tailor and scale everything to the player and limit player choice as if the player were an idiot unable to make their own decisions. That's what Bethesda did when they added enemy scaling to The Elder Scrolls games ("what if the player faces something they can't do right this instant, oh not that's bad!" mentality) and part of why that series turned into a joke along with dumbing down anything that required the player to think. Such mechanics contribute to making every part of a game feel artificial and stale and also cut opportunities from enterprising players.
I don't need the game to decide in the background whether I can take or want to take on this trade contract or not. Show me the damn contract and I'll decide myself.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2021, 08:10:38 AM by Helldiver »
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EclipseRanger

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #936 on: March 23, 2021, 08:17:33 AM »

That was my interpretation, and past a certain point I can't see myself picking up more ships just to take a big shipping contract, and constantly moving hullmods around just sounds like a hassle, in which case why offer the contract at all? It doesn't add anything to the gameplay like a murderously powerful bounty I couldn't dream of doing does. If I can pick up an extra Shepard or Wayfarer early game to do a big shipping job, or upgrade a frigate freighter to a destroyer-sized one, sure, that's progress (assuming suitable ships are actually available for purchase). But if I'm flying around with as many ships as I'm ever going to want and/or fit in my (soft capped at 30) fleet than what's the point of offering bigger contracts than my fleet can carry? Gameplay wise it's just a waste of time, and I can't see it making sense in universe either if I can get asked to, say, deliver over 80K food to any place once I'm flying around 30 Expanded Cargo Hold Atlases. Even Chico I've never seen ask for more than 30K food at once, so I'd be very curious to know what a size 4 or even size 3 colony would need with over double that amount of food.

My concern is that the game will consistently generate delivery contracts which exceed your capacity even after defanging your fleet and/or putting a greater focus on (combat) freighters, or even reaching your final 30 endgame ships. Leaving you with tedious hullmod micromanagement to trick the game into generating contracts you can actually handle (and more tedious hullmod micromanagement to expand your holds again afterwards). I can't imagine that being fun, not when the game could just limit itself to contracts you can actually handle. Which I personally wouldn't see as the game treating you as a god, I'd see it as the game glossing over details which the player doesn't need to know. I can imagine those people in bars stuck in a bind being in charge of more than one shipping deal, only offering work which I can actually do and which they think I would see as worth my time. I don't need to be offered a delivery contract which takes five more Atlas ships than my fleet can support to know such contracts exist, the AI merchant fleet leaving the planet and flying off to wherever with lots of goodies (and escorts...) does that already.

My current exploration fleet involves Expanded Cargo Hold/Efficiency Overhaul pirate Mules being used as "combat" ships anyway, I don't know how much more budget I can cut short of going into battle with actual Buffaloes(?)...

I think that you're going to the other extreme as if the game would only give you contracts you "can't do". The game can have a variety of contracts and you grab the ones you want based on what you plan on doing. Small trade contract and you have small capacity? Grab it if you want that money and it lines up with what you wanna do. Big contract and you have the capacity? Same thing. Big contract and you don't have the capacity? Up to you to take it based on what you can do to fulfill the requirement and other factors. Heck why am I writing this out?

The game doesn't have to tailor and scale everything to the player and limit player choice as if the player were an idiot unable to make their own decisions. That's what Bethesda did when they added enemy scaling to The Elder Scrolls games ("what if the player faces something they can't do right this instant, oh not that's bad!" mentality) and part of why that series turned into a joke along with dumbing down anything that required the player to think. Such mechanics contribute to making every part of a game feel artificial and stale and also cut opportunities from enterprising players.
I don't need the game to decide in the background whether I can take or want to take on this trade contract or not. Show me the damn contract and I'll decide myself.

 Exactly this.The player can make their own choices no problem.We could go even further and be able to "rent" extra ship capacity to fulfill a contract too big for our current fleet.It's always nice to have the choice presented.You want to trade some of your combat ships for added Atlases to serve a contract???Sure,that's a casculated risk/reward choice.Not to mention,the lore and the game mechanics strongly suggest that these contracts aren't offered to us,they 're broadcast in the vicinity up for grabs.it's not thematically and shouldn't be tailored to us in any way.
 Now,the new contacts SHOULD offer more tailored jobs,since they know who they 're talking to and what the player can do.The new patch notes show that we can dictate to some degree what jobs they 'll provide,so that's covered.
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AcaMetis

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #937 on: March 23, 2021, 08:55:00 AM »

You're going to the other extreme as if the game would only give you contracts you "can't do". The game can have a variety of contracts and you grab the ones you want based on what you plan on doing. Small trade contract and you have small capacity? Grab it if you want that money and it lines up with what you wanna do. Big contract and you have the capacity? Same thing. Big contract and you don't have the capacity? Up to you to take it based on what you can do to fulfill the requirement and other factors. Heck why am I writing this out?

The game doesn't have to tailor and scale everything to the player and limit player choice as if the player were an idiot unable to make their own decisions. That's what Bethesda did when they added enemy scaling to The Elder Scrolls games ("what if the player faces something they can't do right this instant, oh not that's bad!" mentality) and part of why that series turned into a joke along with dumbing down anything that required the player to think. Such mechanics contribute to making every part of a game feel artificial and stale and also cut opportunities from enterprising players.
I don't need the game to decide in the background whether I can take or want to take on this trade contract or not. Show me the damn contract and I'll decide myself.
Depending on how things get implemented it very well might end up going in that extreme direction. I don't expect it to, but it's not impossible, and what little I'm reading isn't giving me the impression that it's not at least going in that direction. It'd be nice if the game were to offer multiple options in terms of contracts, basically the "I can imagine those people in bars stuck in a bind being in charge of more than one shipping deal" idea I mentioned earlier, but as of right now that's not how the game works, and I haven't heard about any changes along those lines (though in hindsight it would be nice). Right now any given planet might or might not offer the option of one singular contract, which I can do unless I'm already hauling a ton of cargo around. If those contracts end up becoming a chore and/or impossible to take because they exceed my fleet's cargo capacity regardless of what I'm carrying, well, isn't that a step backwards?

There is something to be said about taking away player choice by tailoring offers and opportunities to scale with the player's capabilities, but there's also something to be said about having choices which are not meaningful and/or good. In Daggerfall I can work the character creation process such that I can create a character which can kill Vampire Ancients, one of the most powerful enemies the game can generate, five minutes after leaving the tutorial dungeon. Alternatively, if I choose to use a normal character I'm at risk of unavoidable death and/or quest failure every time I rest, because the game might generate a Fire Daedra to ambush me long before I have any means to do anything but run away in abject terror or die trying. Is that a good choice to give the player? Learn to exploit the daylights out of character creation to create absurdly overpowered characters, or accept that RNG might randomly kill you dead with no possible recourse?

Quote
Exactly this.The player can make their own choices no problem.We could go even further and be able to "rent" extra ship capacity to fulfill a contract too big for our current fleet.It's always nice to have the choice presented.You want to trade some of your combat ships for added Atlases to serve a contract???Sure,that's a casculated risk/reward choice.Not to mention,the lore and the game mechanics strongly suggest that these contracts aren't offered to us,they 're broadcast in the vicinity up for grabs.it's not thematically and shouldn't be tailored to us in any way.
 Now,the new contacts SHOULD offer more tailored jobs,since they know who they 're talking to and what the player can do.The new patch notes show that we can dictate to some degree what jobs they 'll provide,so that's covered.
I'd be fine with being rented ships or having the option to rent ships like that, and with contacts knowing your fleet's capabilities and offering contracts to match, or with bar offers being more flexible and everything. But the patch notes doesn't say anything about any of that. The patch notes says "Delivery missions: offers will now occasionally exceed player's cargo capacity". That, to me, sounds like some amount of the delivery contracts I'll be offered will be for more than my fleet can carry, which means either not taking the contract because I can't do it (in which case why offer it at all?), refitting my ships to focus on cargo space (tedious to do constantly, and if contracts end up exceeding that refitted fleet's limits I'm right back to square one), adding more ships to my fleet (not always available or possible once I reach the 30 ships soft cap) or switching out ships (what's fun about flying to a place to dump a Paragon, pick up an Atlas from somewhere, do a delivery contract which hopefully is still there and afterwards come back to pick the Paragon back up?). I just don't see how this is a change for the better, how cargo contracts that exceed a player's cargo capacity add anything to the game but missed opportunities or tedium (lategame moreso than early game).
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ApolloStarsector

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #938 on: March 23, 2021, 02:28:50 PM »

Changes as of March 08, 2021

Brilliant. This patch is shaping up to be exactly what the game needs. Well done.
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Inventor Raccoon

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #939 on: March 23, 2021, 02:43:11 PM »

Re: delivery missions generating with quantities above your cargo capacity, might be worth keeping in mind that you'll be able to use the new personal contacts feature to reliably receive trade-related missions of a roughly desired quantity.
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Locklave

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #940 on: March 24, 2021, 01:49:57 AM »

My concern is that the game will consistently generate delivery contracts which exceed your capacity even after defanging your fleet and/or putting a greater focus on (combat) freighters

I've never mentioned this before but now that you say it this always happens late game. The cargo mission requiring WAY more cargo space then any normal fleet would have or requests for cargo exceeding the totals of 10 planets worth of material.

9-16k fuel request? 10-12k supplies? How many planets am I expected to visit in the tiny timeframe they give for delivery? The planets commodity limits aren't scaling like this. But have fun trying to get 9k fuel in 10 days or w/e.

Mid to late game it gets to the point where you would need a specialized merchant fleet to complete those contracts, a playstyle this game doesn't support and sends players into a rage when you suggest that the game should support it in a thread.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2021, 02:23:48 AM by Locklave »
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Cyan Leader

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #941 on: March 24, 2021, 07:51:00 AM »

So did the Ion Pulser end up getting nerfed? I was looking forward to using the one from the changelog.
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Haalon

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #942 on: March 24, 2021, 09:00:31 AM »

I think I saw on twitter, that we will be able to check stats of the fighter weapons with some new UI
Is this still the case?
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SonnaBanana

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #943 on: March 24, 2021, 09:03:22 AM »

Alex, any plans to make Combat Freighters still useful in lategame or is that a non-concern?
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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #944 on: March 25, 2021, 08:51:23 AM »

I purchased after .91a became available and really enjoyed my first playthrough. It was a fantastic experience and scratched an itch I've always had that didn't require the latest and greatest technology to do. Reading through the patch notes, I am excited to play through a 2nd time with all of these changes (and with no tutorial pension this time). There are so many changes to look forward to and I'm very interested in how the story point system will change things in terms of character progression. My only real regret in playthrough 1 was not being able to experiment with more skills - so I'm kinda hoping that you could use story points to reset some of your choices if they're no longer working out for the phase of the game you're in. If not, no big deal... I'll just have to play more. From one engineer to another, thanks for everything.
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