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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Codex Overhaul (05/11/24)

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Author Topic: Starsector 0.95a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 605306 times)

CoverdInBees

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #510 on: October 30, 2020, 07:30:21 AM »


By the way Alex, have you ever solved the issue with ships randomly stopping when burning in and loosing the boost? I thought it was from asteroids or something and you perhaps solved it already, but someone said he's getting all his ship robbed from burning in boost, which doesn't sound good, so I wanted to check.
Oh yeah i'd love to see this fixed. I always assumed it was from asteroids too but not entirely sure. It's most annoying when your ship already lost it before you've even entered the visible part of the map, and ofc it usually seems to happen during a pursuit.

Whenever it happens it's due to collision danger as far as I know, I'm not aware of any bugs affecting this. I mean, it sucks if your ship stops burning in because there's an asteroid that probably wouldn't have hit it but was enough to set off the emergency braking maneuver, but, well.

If there's an issue where it happens when it shouldn't, I'd love to know more about it!

(Btw, I did just now make it so that the tiny asteroids from rings that do no damage don't factor in here. They shouldn't have much impact regardless, though, but thinking about it, it's actually possible they might cause smaller ships burn to cut short... hmm. Well, regardless, not anymore!)


If it's supposed to be caused by asteroids i don't think it's bugged, or at least not that i've ever experienced bugged behavior, (i've never seen it affect every ship like SCC describes) and i think making it ignore those tiny asteroids will go a long way in solving any annoying/unintentioned behavior.

Consider this: if you can put the same thing in every slot, then every slot is functionally the same, just bigger or smaller, there's no qualitative difference between what they let you do, just quantitative. On the other hand, if for example a medium energy slot and a large energy slot have quite different things that go in them, then *ships* become more interesting and varied simply due to the differences in which of these slots they have.

Now, having a few weapons that are just a bigger/smaller version of something else doesn't take things all the way to this extreme. But it does take things some ways towards it, and that's why I'm generally not keen on it.

One way to think of it is this - you have different slot types, right- ballistic, energy, missile. They make ships very different! Slot sizes are a little like this, too, and this is good because it makes ships more different. The more similar-but-a-different-size weapons there are, the less this is the case.

I for one hope you'll never lose sight of this design choice no matter how often it's brought up. The biggest problem i have with all the weapons that most mods add to the game is that they fill every niche which imo really takes away *meaningful* choice by adding too much choice.
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Schwartz

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #511 on: October 30, 2020, 07:41:40 AM »

Re: Ship burn drive at combat start. It happens quite often to me that the burn fizzes out early with no obstacle there, or that the burn continues and plows through a small asteroid. Out of the two, I definitely prefer the latter and wish the detection system wouldn't exist. Could also just give the ships damage immunity until the initial burn ends, if that's not too game-y.
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DatonKallandor

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #512 on: October 30, 2020, 09:54:42 AM »

Consider this: if you can put the same thing in every slot, then every slot is functionally the same, just bigger or smaller, there's no qualitative difference between what they let you do, just quantitative. On the other hand, if for example a medium energy slot and a large energy slot have quite different things that go in them, then *ships* become more interesting and varied simply due to the differences in which of these slots they have.

Now, having a few weapons that are just a bigger/smaller version of something else doesn't take things all the way to this extreme. But it does take things some ways towards it, and that's why I'm generally not keen on it.

One way to think of it is this - you have different slot types, right- ballistic, energy, missile. They make ships very different! Slot sizes are a little like this, too, and this is good because it makes ships more different. The more similar-but-a-different-size weapons there are, the less this is the case.

100% this! Keep the weapon selection mean and lean and force people to make choices. Having 5 different weapons that all do the same thing with a minute 2% difference for every single role is the worst.
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Immahnoob

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #513 on: October 30, 2020, 10:35:19 AM »

Are wars between factions going to be possible at some point? That's one thing I always wanted to see in Starsector.
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #514 on: October 30, 2020, 10:45:52 AM »

Thanks for explaining the reasoning, now that i think about it i never had any problem with kinetics, so i guess it just feels like the medium energy slot lacks options in the 1000 range or beam category, and while it could be fixed by slapping a medium tac laser, it could also be fixed by adding something else entirely that follows your philosophy.

Yeah, hmm. Not sure what that option might be, though, without being either "larger tac laser" or "smaller HIL". At 1000 range it's to be a beam, and, per the previous, there are somewhat less easy options for making them distinct. I suppose a fragmentation beam *might* be interesting...


Does the speed penalty for exceeding the ship limit apply to AI fleets too?

The question doesn't come up in vanilla since AI fleets don't exceed the cap. If modded fleets exceed the cap, they will not have the penalty since presumably those fleets have a reason for being so large.

If it's supposed to be caused by asteroids i don't think it's bugged, or at least not that i've ever experienced bugged behavior, (i've never seen it affect every ship like SCC describes) and i think making it ignore those tiny asteroids will go a long way in solving any annoying/unintentioned behavior.
Re: Ship burn drive at combat start. It happens quite often to me that the burn fizzes out early with no obstacle there, or that the burn continues and plows through a small asteroid. Out of the two, I definitely prefer the latter and wish the detection system wouldn't exist. Could also just give the ships damage immunity until the initial burn ends, if that's not too game-y.

Hmm - I'll keep an eye out for it happening unnecessarily; it's possible that it's over-sensitive in some cases. And, you say that - and I'm sure it's true for you! - but just in terms of overall volume of feedback, "ships occasionally dying or taking damage" felt like it generated *a lot* more of it. Damage immunity, hmm - I don't mind the idea on principle, but that could get situationally very weird if say enemy ships near your burn-in area, etc.



I for one hope you'll never lose sight of this design choice no matter how often it's brought up. The biggest problem i have with all the weapons that most mods add to the game is that they fill every niche which imo really takes away *meaningful* choice by adding too much choice.
100% this! Keep the weapon selection mean and lean and force people to make choices. Having 5 different weapons that all do the same thing with a minute 2% difference for every single role is the worst.

*thumbs up*!

Are wars between factions going to be possible at some point? That's one thing I always wanted to see in Starsector.

Honestly, I don't really see doing that - that's veering into straight-up 4x territory, and the game isn't really designed around that / it's not a direction I want to go in. I could see something more event-driven happening along these lines, but not for example a fully dynamic situation where colonies are changing hands left and right and so on.
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Zaizai

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #515 on: October 30, 2020, 10:55:48 AM »

Thanks for explaining the reasoning, now that i think about it i never had any problem with kinetics, so i guess it just feels like the medium energy slot lacks options in the 1000 range or beam category, and while it could be fixed by slapping a medium tac laser, it could also be fixed by adding something else entirely that follows your philosophy.

Yeah, hmm. Not sure what that option might be, though, without being either "larger tac laser" or "smaller HIL". At 1000 range it's to be a beam, and, per the previous, there are somewhat less easy options for making them distinct. I suppose a fragmentation beam *might* be interesting...


Well, that sounds amazing to me and would probably fix all my qualms with the medium energy slot :p 
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SCC

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #516 on: October 30, 2020, 11:17:19 AM »

Fragmentation beam could give high-tech some other anti-fighter options, without making Falcon or Eagle too strong. Or not.

Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #517 on: October 30, 2020, 11:18:45 AM »

Ah, that's a good point re: vs fighters. I wonder if it'd have the effect of making Heavy Burst Laser significantly less useful. (Or, perhaps, it might combine nicely with it - one to melt fighter armor, the other to finish it off.)
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Embolism

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #518 on: October 30, 2020, 12:11:48 PM »

The old phase beam was basically two tac lasers strapped together. Honestly though I think the graviton beam is fine enough as a medium tac laser - yes it performs very poorly against armor but if shields are down that's most of your work done as long-ranged support.

The only weapon I feel is still missing is a HE ballistic weapon that is to the heavy mortar as the heavy autocannon is to the arbalest.
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Schwartz

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #519 on: October 30, 2020, 12:48:05 PM »

I play vanilla with new versions, but after that usually do modded games. Even with a large variety of energy weapons, they never felt like ballistics. This is largely due to most of them sticking to the energy damage type. Having energy weapons fill all the roles has never been a problem - it only made outfitting ships to suit a role easier. And the real outliers as far as overpowered energy weapons go have almost always been those with non-energy damage types. I would caution against adding more.

Not that a frag damage beam sounds overpowered. It sounds like a weapon in search of a good use. The Burst PD lineup wrecks face quickly; it doesn't synergize much with anything that isn't more Burst PD or works at the same speed.

However, it's true that the energy lineup is thinner than the other two. It could use 1-2 new smalls and mediums for sure.
- Charge weapons are interesting and energy seems to embrace the ammo concept still. Slightly frontloaded damage works very well with the peekaboo mentality of fast high-tech ships, and we just got a new one of those as well.
- Slow-moving AoE projectiles, for example a moving EMP field or a plasma ball with a proximity fuse, would provide more medium distance punch against swarms.

It's really hard to come up with weapons that haven't been covered by mods, by the way. I wouldn't be afraid to look there for inspiration either. Shadowyards' CEPC for example.
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FooF

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #520 on: October 30, 2020, 01:31:26 PM »

The old phase beam was basically two tac lasers strapped together. Honestly though I think the graviton beam is fine enough as a medium tac laser - yes it performs very poorly against armor but if shields are down that's most of your work done as long-ranged support.

The only weapon I feel is still missing is a HE ballistic weapon that is to the heavy mortar as the heavy autocannon is to the arbalest.

A Medium Frag Beam would be interesting but I think Alex is right in saying it might overlap with the Heavy Burst Laser too much. Whereas the HBL can punch through shields (and ignore flares), this Frag Beam would be near-useless against shielded fighters. I suppose it would be great for missile intercept, though. I don't know if I would use a Medium mount for just missile defense, though. Oddly enough, I wish the Heavy Burst Laser had a long-range frag beam to it for missiles and only used its charges against fighters or close-range threats. Or to put it another way, I'd want to use the Frag Beam and HBL in tandem but I'd never spend two Medium slots for it. I suppose a Small Frag beam would work... :shrugs:

As for the HE version of the Heavy AC, the Heavy Mortar would have to get nerfed to create this weapon. It's already very efficient and moderately powerful. The only thing it lacks is shot speed/accuracy and the extra 100 range. If the Heavy Mortar got nerfed to say 180 DPS (by dropping shots/min) and this new hypothetical gun had 800 range, 150 damage/shot (~220 DPS) and was more accurate, there might be room for such a weapon but as it is, the Heavy Morter is already the "middle-of-the-road" HE Medium. Anything more and you make the Heavy Mauler too lackluster unless you buffed its damage/shot. Basically, you'd have to move all the other weapons around in order to create the new one.
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Zaizai

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #521 on: October 30, 2020, 02:11:28 PM »

I don't get why you are assuming the medium frag beam would be a PD, we already have tons of those to choose from, it can just be a powerful hull destroyer when comboed with a HIL, or with other ships dealing anti armor damage etc, kinda like the Thumper but sustained damage instead of burst, and longer range to fit with the other beam weapons
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Schwartz

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #522 on: October 30, 2020, 02:20:28 PM »

HIL needs no help dispatching ships in seconds as soon as the shields are down. Frag beam would be a trap choice here. What HIL needs is kinetics.

That's not to say a frag beam couldn't do the thing. It'd just help with making the easy part easier, while not helping at all with the difficult part.
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Zaizai

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #523 on: October 30, 2020, 03:21:52 PM »

I mean, it still takes a huge amount of time to kill big tanky ships with the HIL, more than enough time for them to vent and get back into action multiple times. by going HIL+frag beams on a sunder for example, you would be useless against shields as you said, but there's an argument to be made for specializations, you lose some you gain some. I can have my officers take care of the shields for me while i melt them
HIL+graviton is already known to be good against many ships, but having the option to specialize in something different is a good thing imho, doesn't have to be as viable, covering a niche is fine too


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Arcagnello

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #524 on: October 30, 2020, 04:10:20 PM »

I mean, it still takes a huge amount of time to kill big tanky ships with the HIL, more than enough time for them to vent and get back into action multiple times. by going HIL+frag beams on a sunder for example, you would be useless against shields as you said, but there's an argument to be made for specializations, you lose some you gain some. I can have my officers take care of the shields for me while i melt them
HIL+graviton is already known to be good against many ships, but having the option to specialize in something different is a good thing imho, doesn't have to be as viable, covering a niche is fine too

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Also, here's a dumb, self made, aneurism-inducing on-the-spot quote: No ship or weapon is broken in Starsector, it just needs to be more expensive to field.

Do you want a Graviton beam that fits into a large energy slot? Kadur remnant has a weapon called Graviton Sweeper that does increasing amounts of hard flux damage to a shielded ship the more the beam touches the enemy shield, but it's almost useless against small ships or anything far enough to not make enough contact.

Do you want a Gauss Cannon that does kinetic damage but that also deals HE damage on impacting armor? Try a weapon from Tahlan Shipworks (I can't quite remember its name) that does just that but that is worth 26 OP, very bad flux to damage ratio and rather disappointing DPS for a weapon that size

Do you want a 1k range medium energy mount that deals frag damage in short, devastating bursts much like a Tachyon lance? The Desolator Beam will do just that but be ready to cough up 16 Ordinance Points for a weapon that's absolutely useless unless it hits hull.

Providing what arguably is the weakest and least varied type of large weapon mount (energy) with more (albeit costly) options would help ships that aren't a Paragon fill  more roles better and not be relegated to just being a kiting laser vomiter or a balls-to-the-wall overridden mostrosity fielding a Plasma Cannon.

P.S: I know something about the latter. I've gone crazy enough to override an Apogee and give it a Plasma Cannon out of desperation before.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2020, 04:15:03 PM by Arcagnello »
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