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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Starsector 0.95a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 596099 times)

TLW

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #2085 on: August 25, 2021, 10:06:26 AM »

So - some thoughts from someone who got the game relatively recently, and so am mainly comparing 0.95a with 0.9.1a, not anything before that. I bought Starsector and ended up playing a fair bit on 0.9.1a, and really enjoyed it. Then work happened, and I had to drop it for a while. I've finally had some free time recently and realized "oh hey, there's a new patch I should try". Started playing 0.95a. And then... gave up and went back to 0.9.1a, for several reasons. I've been debating making this post (showing up with negative feedback is iffy at the best of times); as you can see I did indeed decide to post this rather than just having silence.

The main issue is this: from what I've played 0.95a feels like a more polished experience... focusing on emphasizing the components of 0.9.1a I liked the least at the expense of the components of 0.9.1a that I liked the most. (One exception, as nothing is ever black and white: from what I've seen the story and lore of 0.95a is great.)

(Fair warning: the below is a mix of the partial playthrough I did on 0.95a, reading the forum thread, and seeing the changelog. Some of the later game stuff in particular I have not personally experienced but am extrapolating from the thread/changelog and my experiences on 0.9.1a.)

Even on 0.9.1a the early-mid game (the 2-3 combat ship portion in particular) was kind of meh for me. I am not and likely never will be the person who enjoys individual control of a single unit in a larger engagement alongside non-human-controlled allies. (I'm decent at it; I just don't like it. Control of a lone ship? Sure. Guiding a bunch of semi-autonomous units? Sure. Fighting alongside allied artificial stupidity? Not so much. Fighting alongside allied artificial stupidity when I can do better magicially? No thank you.) In 0.9.1a I moved away from fleet compositions where I had to directly control the flagship ASAP in flavor of overall larger-scale tactics. Ditto, I find cases where things are obviously different for the player simply by virtue of the player being the player jarring, and I rather dislike hard caps/limits/'you can't do that' as opposed to 'it's likely a terrible idea to do that' approaches. (It's a bad idea to jump into a [REDACTED] fight with a bunch of tankers and nothing else... but you can try if you want. The game doesn't go 'you don't have X capital ships so you cannot jump into the system'.)

On the other hand: I rather enjoy the lore and story. (And from what I've seen, 0.95a improves on this. Kudos.) I really enjoyed the trading (/trading contract/black market/etc) aspects, as well as later-game colony development (from the first fledgling colony on up to becoming a fairly decent power). I also rather enjoyed the exploration aspects; I always ran a fast fleet and generally kited and picked my battles (or just avoided them), and I liked the tradeoffs of sustained burn / running dark / emergency burn / etc.

So, back to 0.9.1a and 0.95a. Much of this has been talked to death in this thread already; I'll mention those components that particularly stand out to me.

  • 0.95a makes it apparent that the later-game largescale colony development and management I rather enjoyed is not an intended game feature, to the point of putting hard caps on player colony development (see above re: different for the player).
  • 0.95a's revamped skill system is substantially less flexible. In 0.9.1a, there _were_ advantages to not taking own-ship-specific skills. In 0.95a things seem set up specifically so that you have to take a variety of skills, and as a result there isn't nearly as much of a countering upside to the disadvantages of going the e.g. 'no direct control' route. (Or any other specialized route, for that matter...). Which again, seems like it accurately accomplishes the intended result; the intended result makes the game less fun for me.
  • Speaking of skills, the whole 'diminishing returns' skill amusements pushes towards relatively 'tight' fleets (well, when it doesn't simply end up with me disregarding the skill entirely)... which in turn pushes strongly for direct player control in engagements as doing slightly better than the AI improves outcomes substantially. I also find the 'I can find x% extra space on ship A or ship B, but if I put them in a fleet together suddenly I can't find x% extra space?' thing annoying in the player-is-special department.
  • The deployment point changes... been talked about to death already, but adding my two cents: it makes it more important to directly control the flagship (and see above re: obviously different for the player), and is obviously different for the player directly (primarily due to officer limitations).
  • 0.95a has made me completely disregard ECM and design things assuming the deck is stacked against me, compared to in 0.9.1a where it was a definite tradeoff and another set of decisions to be made. Retaining the changed mechanics and dropping to +-10% makes this even more the case.
  • RIP carriers... which I used largely because I really didn't like the RNG of ship losses and D-mods (you overextend with a carrier fleet, you lose a bunch of supplies and crew, depending. Reasonably consistent. You overextend with a ship... salvage being salvage, not so much.) Ship loss RNG is still annoying, and the 'use carriers' workaround is no longer viable... and the improvement on that front (removing d-mods) is _itself_ RNG-based, and a (even more so with 0.95a) limited skill too. And meanwhile the balance changes seem to encourage non-AI-friendly designs.
  • The battle objectives... I didn't particularly like them even in 0.9.1a, but there at least they were less likely to make-or-break the combat. I like juggling groups of ships against ships. Playing capture-the-flag... substantially less so.
  • The combination of fleet caps, skills, and the changes to militarized subsystems makes high-speed trading/exploration fleets substantially less viable. Ditto for the changes to asteroids and emergency burn (as it means there are many more situations where you need/want to be slow... so 'move fast and don't be caught' is much more difficult and tedious.) Ditto for the sensor profile increase.
  • I really don't like story points, in general. It moves away from 'player is different by virtue of being in the right place at the right time' or 'player is different by virtue of being skilled' to 'player is different by virtue of being the player'. And changes things from wandering around finding/exploring interesting things to "you require more vespene gas story points". I could see it working in an ironman roguelike designed around it as a way of avoiding permadeath; by and large I don't like ironman roguelikes (save system of starsector is bad enough). Then again I'm the odd sort of person who generally doesn't like XP in games either for much the same reasons.
  • Gating things behind story points is not my cup of tea; gating things being story points and then hard-capping certain aspects (e.g. builtin hull mods... only then there's safety overrides) makes it worse.

Balancing this, we have things I found better about 0.95a:

  • A fair number of QoL changes and other tweaks
  • Better/more story. (Kudos, again.)

Many of these appear to be accomplishing their seemingly-intended effect; the intended effects of many of these end up making me like the game less to the point of abandoning the playthrough because I realized I wasn't enjoying it and was mainly slogging through so I could catch the story expansions/extensions. Which... fair enough; it's not my game. I'm just saddened.
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SCC

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #2086 on: August 25, 2021, 11:08:39 AM »

0.95a makes it apparent that the later-game largescale colony development and management I rather enjoyed is not an intended game feature, to the point of putting hard caps on player colony development (see above re: different for the player).
Do you mean the population limit? While you can still makes lots of money (thank you Commerce, very cool), you cannot have all the numbers be big, no. You can still have as many alpha core colonies as you want. On the upside, there are more colony items now.

Speaking of skills, the whole 'diminishing returns' skill amusements pushes towards relatively 'tight' fleets (well, when it doesn't simply end up with me disregarding the skill entirely)... which in turn pushes strongly for direct player control in engagements as doing slightly better than the AI improves outcomes substantially. I also find the 'I can find x% extra space on ship A or ship B, but if I put them in a fleet together suddenly I can't find x% extra space?' thing annoying in the player-is-special department.
The deployment point changes... been talked about to death already, but adding my two cents: it makes it more important to directly control the flagship (and see above re: obviously different for the player), and is obviously different for the player directly (primarily due to officer limitations).
It isn't necessary to deploy the flagship, actually. Nor the flagship has to be a combat ship. I wonder, do you even get any DP advantage, if you have no combat skills?
The diminishing returns skill weren't meant to push you towards combat skills per se, but rather change it so that they don't seem like an optimal pick (or spamming Paragons like the strategy that makes the most out of your skills), unless you are a combat god.

0.95a has made me completely disregard ECM and design things assuming the deck is stacked against me, compared to in 0.9.1a where it was a definite tradeoff and another set of decisions to be made. Retaining the changed mechanics and dropping to +-10% makes this even more the case.
The tables have turned and this time it's the player that's range-crippled! I wonder if Alex is going to do something with ECM or remove it, since I don't think it serves any real purpose beyond making Remnants even harder to fight.

RIP carriers... which I used largely because I really didn't like the RNG of ship losses and D-mods (you overextend with a carrier fleet, you lose a bunch of supplies and crew, depending. Reasonably consistent. You overextend with a ship... salvage being salvage, not so much.) Ship loss RNG is still annoying, and the 'use carriers' workaround is no longer viable... and the improvement on that front (removing d-mods) is _itself_ RNG-based, and a (even more so with 0.95a) limited skill too. And meanwhile the balance changes seem to encourage non-AI-friendly designs.
If you have never or rarely lost ships while using carrier fleets, I have a feeling that you were (knowingly or not) powergaming and removing the challenge from your game, only now experiencing the intended gameplay experience.

Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #2087 on: August 25, 2021, 11:13:00 AM »

Hi - just wanted to say, I appreciate your feedback. Much of this does seem to be just a "you're looking for something that's not the game's focus", as you say - which, I mean, it's absolutely fair, but, right. So much of the game's focus is on controlling a ship in combat - I can respect that it's not your thing, but the fact that you can actually play the game without it (and, as far as I'm aware, that's still quite doable, if harder) is more of a happy accident than a specific goal. Still, feedback duly noted!

(Not sure what you mean by "when I can do better magically", specifically as it pertains to fighting alongside your allies in combat, btw.)
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SCC

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #2088 on: August 25, 2021, 11:17:34 AM »

I am guessing he means "player is smarter (better) than AI at controlling ships", which isn't true for every player anyway, if Reddit is to be taken into consideration...

Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #2089 on: August 25, 2021, 04:27:16 PM »

0.95a makes it apparent that the later-game largescale colony development and management I rather enjoyed is not an intended game feature, to the point of putting hard caps on player colony development (see above re: different for the player).
Do you mean the population limit? While you can still makes lots of money (thank you Commerce, very cool), you cannot have all the numbers be big, no. You can still have as many alpha core colonies as you want. On the upside, there are more colony items now.
He probably wants a large empire at least the size of Hegemony or League.  Today, that is not really possible without core abuse, which leads to perpetual harassment from zombie Pather cells (if worlds grow to size 4+) and Hegemony (if not wiped off the map).

Game mechanics is less of concern.  I want a big empire because I do not want my character to be a big stupid dog completely reliant on the largesse from his masters.  I want my guy to be in charge, keeping my bases healthy and producing everything my fleet needs to function.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2021, 04:33:31 PM by Megas »
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I thought it was an RTS

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #2090 on: August 25, 2021, 05:35:09 PM »

So much of the game's focus is on controlling a ship in combat - I can respect that it's not your thing, but the fact that you can actually play the game without it (and, as far as I'm aware, that's still quite doable, if harder) is more of a happy accident than a specific goal.

I only discovered this game at 0.95a. I didn't know that was true, it's not stated anywhere that I noticed. I skipped the tutorial and finished the game without knowing how deep the ship controls were. I thought you could only use wasd to move the ship and shoot with the mouse hehe. So needless to say I always ran on autopilot...

I mostly fought battles by flipping between the tactical map and queuing orders like in StarCraft... Capturing the points to get more deployment points for more ships hehe.

Great game considering I played and explored/finished everything the wrong way and had a blast!

0.95a makes it apparent that the later-game largescale colony development and management I rather enjoyed is not an intended game feature, to the point of putting hard caps on player colony development (see above re: different for the player).
Do you mean the population limit? While you can still makes lots of money (thank you Commerce, very cool), you cannot have all the numbers be big, no. You can still have as many alpha core colonies as you want. On the upside, there are more colony items now.
He probably wants a large empire at least the size of Hegemony or League.  Today, that is not really possible without core abuse, which leads to perpetual harassment from zombie Pather cells (if worlds grow to size 4+) and Hegemony (if not wiped off the map).

Hey so honestly this is my only complaint about the game. I wanted a huge empire, 'cause I was playing it like an RTS... I thought I was supposed to conquer the galaxy. The hegemony would not leave me alone, so I tried to exterminate them and other factions (Apparently, even the Hegemony's enemies get upset when I repeatedly bombarded the Hegemony worlds... That seemed weird to me but I guess it makes sense).

That led me to discover that certain planets of these factions are not able to be rendered uninhabitable. I found that really emersion-breaking and frustrating.

So basically my complaints in a nutshell:
  • Couldn't fully eliminate the core factions. I warning dialogs should warn you that it breaks game mechanics, but otherwise you should let the player do what they want. I wanted to conquer the galaxy and I couldn't :(
  • Raiders. Like seriously, in a single word: Raiders. You should be able to hunt them down and eliminate them entirely. The perpetual respawning is a big time emersion killer.

Other than those 2 complaints, this was an awesome game. Kind of felt like Mount & Blade in space hehe!
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SafariJohn

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #2091 on: August 25, 2021, 05:51:08 PM »

So much of the game's focus is on controlling a ship in combat - I can respect that it's not your thing, but the fact that you can actually play the game without it (and, as far as I'm aware, that's still quite doable, if harder) is more of a happy accident than a specific goal.

I only discovered this game at 0.95a. I didn't know that was true, it's not stated anywhere that I noticed. I skipped the tutorial and finished the game without knowing how deep the ship controls were. I thought you could only use wasd to move the ship and shoot with the mouse hehe. So needless to say I always ran on autopilot...

I do not blame you for thinking the game is an RTS.

Default ship controls are still A-D to turn, right? It's almost impossible to play that way; turn-to-cursor should be the default.
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #2092 on: August 25, 2021, 06:01:13 PM »

Another comment about empire.

I has hoped that progression would be akin to early D&D fighters.  You guy gets stronger, then after he levels up enough (and becomes famous), he graduates from a no-name murderhobo to a land baron that rules a small kingdom and leads an army to kill other armies or singular strong opponents like an evil wizard, a dragon, or the balrog.  I imagine it would be a gameplay shift, likely a good one.  At least the player is leaving an impact on the world by becoming a power, not stuck at a dead-end job of mugging monsters and/or grinding or fetching for monster body parts for the adventure's guild in a stock jrpg (and possibly isekai) setting.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2021, 06:03:47 PM by Megas »
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #2093 on: August 25, 2021, 06:02:41 PM »

Great game considering I played and explored/finished everything the wrong way and had a blast!

I wouldn't call it "wrong", specifically, just... not necessarily "right", either :) But the absolute main thing is you had fun!

  • Couldn't fully eliminate the core factions. I warning dialogs should warn you that it breaks game mechanics, but otherwise you should let the player do what they want. I wanted to conquer the galaxy and I couldn't :(

You *can* do it after you complete the main storyline. Still, yeah, that's worth thinking about some more. I understand where you're coming from there, but on the other hand, *a lot* of people would miss it/click through and mess up their saves...


Default ship controls are still A-D to turn, right? It's almost impossible to play that way; turn-to-cursor should be the default.

I've got to say, that's really subjective - you're not wrong *for you*! But for example, I play exclusively with hold-shift-to-turn and use tank controls quite a lot.
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #2094 on: August 25, 2021, 06:05:50 PM »

I've got to say, that's really subjective - you're not wrong *for you*! But for example, I play exclusively with hold-shift-to-turn and use tank controls quite a lot.
As a former long-time Doom/Quake player (and other games that need a lot of keys to move and shoot like Robotron ports), tank controls are natural for me.  I only use mouse to aim weapons and pan the screen.  I use the keyboard for piloting my ship, and it is much like playing Doom with the keyboard.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2021, 06:12:51 PM by Megas »
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SonnaBanana

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #2095 on: August 25, 2021, 06:15:10 PM »

Anyway Alex, I know you're planning a colony and strategic overhaul... not asking what would you change or add but how do you want that aspect to feel like?
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #2096 on: August 25, 2021, 06:21:06 PM »

Anyway Alex, I know you're planning a colony and strategic overhaul...

I've seen you mention that a couple of times, and I'm not really sure what you mean :)

Re: any potential colony adjustments, the general idea is to give them a purpose (rotating around letting you *do* things) and then shape the mechanics to support that.
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hydremajor

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #2097 on: August 25, 2021, 11:02:11 PM »

so a change to how industries work ?

instead of locking a industry slot down when build we get to switch them around as is needed with a downtime period ?

or maybe roll refineries into heavy industry/light industry/mining for a lesser output than dedicated refineries ?

or industry slots added by medium and large space stations ?
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SonnaBanana

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #2098 on: August 26, 2021, 12:56:36 AM »

so a change to how industries work ?

instead of locking a industry slot down when build we get to switch them around as is needed with a downtime period ?

or maybe roll refineries into heavy industry/light industry/mining for a lesser output than dedicated refineries ?

or industry slots added by medium and large space stations ?
It's more about giving Industries additional functions: Patrol Bases can send fleets to assist the player, Tech-Mining might give missions to find Domain goodies etc
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hydremajor

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Re: Starsector 0.95a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #2099 on: August 26, 2021, 01:57:56 AM »

It's more about giving Industries additional functions: Patrol Bases can send fleets to assist the player, Tech-Mining might give missions to find Domain goodies etc

not sure about that, but what if they could dig up location data for other ruins ?
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