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Author Topic: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me  (Read 3330 times)

SaberCherry

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Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2020, 10:50:37 AM »

I wouldn't say Starsector has fantastic graphics, unless you mean in comparison to those titles (I also have a bias against retro pixel style). GraphicsLib does make it look mighty nice, though, props to DR.
Really?  I think the graphics are great.  Especially the stars.  I can't think of a top-down 2D game that I think has better graphics.  Although it is a little unfortunate (aesthetically) that when traveling your ships are represented by tiny dots.
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Deshara

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Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2020, 12:32:35 AM »

All the Mount and Blade games have always been very rough ... It used to be charming, but with Bannerlord they just don't have as many or as good reasons why things are so rough and shabby.

this reminds me of a customer satisfaction study I saw a few years back that concluded that one of the three major predictive factors of a dev studio being favorably viewed by its players over time, isn't how good a game is, because studios tend to be allowed to release janky or unpolished first games, but the perception that the studio's coding and polish is getting better. And that's the huge problem I have with the M&B series; this same game from 11 years ago had about the same level of polish, when the reason you buy the same game again 11 years later is so you can get a polished version of it.

Bannerlord feels more like a remake than a sequel. If Dark Souls 3 had had the same level of jank that demons souls & 1 had people would have forgotten about Fromsoft by now.

(I wish I could find this study lol)
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DubTre6

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Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2020, 05:13:03 AM »

I haven't played Bannerlord, but it seems like they pushed it out the door too early, which is a shame. But big companies have bills to pay, so its understandable from a financial perspective, at least until you account for all the fans you tick off with a half-baked release.
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Ryan390

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Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2020, 09:20:07 AM »

They totally did release too early, especially the day one launch, was horrifically buggy and un-optimized, even on decent PC rigs it ran extremely slow.

While no one expected a polished product such as what Cyberpunk will be, we still expected a level of playability, I actually requested a steam refund, which i've only done 1/2 times before, also had steam for about 15 years and own hundreds of games on it.
I fully support indie devs and smaller dev companies such as Tale Worlds, sunk thousands of hours into Warband and Viking Invasion, yet was utterly dismayed with the quality of launch of Banner Lord.

To their defence they did start patches on day one and have been good to respond to feedback, but a rushed release is a rushed release, especially when asking for the best part of £30, or whatever it was at the time.
Appreciate companies need a return on investment, but shouldn't be at the expense of a long term PC fanbase.

Look what Egosoft did with the X-games, X-Rebirth was a complete disaster initially, took years and years of patching for it to be playable but the damage was already done.
It's unacceptable in most areas of life when you buy products, why should it be acceptable in the games industry it's still a product / service.. 
 


« Last Edit: October 13, 2020, 09:25:16 AM by Ryan390 »
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SaberCherry

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Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2020, 10:04:27 AM »

I fully support indie devs and smaller dev companies such as Tale Worlds, sunk thousands of hours into Warband and Viking Invasion, yet was utterly dismayed with the quality of launch of Banner Lord.
When it was in development for 10 years, I really didn't understand how it could possibly be unfinished at release, but there you have it...

Another game to watch out for is Subnautica Below Zero.  I waited a year after it became available on Steam, then started, assuming maybe some of the end-game content was incomplete.  Then after a couple weeks (fortunately I had not played much), they invalidated save games by completely dumping the original start and storyline and who knows what else (and this is for a game with a lot of voice-work).  I don't recommend touching it until final release, "Very Positive" reviews notwithstanding.
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2020, 04:52:08 AM »

Another game to watch out for is Subnautica Below Zero.  I waited a year after it became available on Steam, then started, assuming maybe some of the end-game content was incomplete.  Then after a couple weeks (fortunately I had not played much), they invalidated save games by completely dumping the original start and storyline and who knows what else (and this is for a game with a lot of voice-work).  I don't recommend touching it until final release, "Very Positive" reviews notwithstanding.
TBH, the way Below Zero is shaping up, you would think that the game was the first in the series... It really shows the fact that they are shooting for a switch release with the much smaller (1/2 to 1/3) play area, slower everything, removed tools and greatly diminished feelings of loneliness and solitude like in the first game
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SafariJohn

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Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2020, 07:26:49 AM »

Sad to hear Below Zero is suffering development troubles.

Regarding map size, TBH Subnautica's map was too large with too many dead zones where it was never worth going. Starsector also suffers from pointless empty areas (star systems with no planets, for example), though some of that could be filled with new types of content.
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Arcagnello

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Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2020, 09:19:40 AM »

Sad to hear Below Zero is suffering development troubles.

Regarding map size, TBH Subnautica's map was too large with too many dead zones where it was never worth going. Starsector also suffers from pointless empty areas (star systems with no planets, for example), though some of that could be filled with new types of content.

I never got into playing Subnautica despite it being one if not the best exploration games of the decade.

One of the things that contributed to that was the developer's decision to cram it's own identity politics into it. For example, did you know that the only item in the game that is meant to hurt animals was and still  is the standard knife?

There is nothing else but an itty bitty butter knife in a game with 30 meter long translucent sea snakes that want to eat you because the company, under their own admission, is for animal rights and found it wrong to give you anything else to defend yourself with.

Not for story, not for immersion (pun intended) but simply to have their game reflect their personal agenda. I will not take away any of the game's stellar features but developing games this way overcomplicates the already arduous task of creating something people will play and have a blast with.

What's worse, you take away one person leading a developer team team this way and the whole project crumbles like a sand castle. It's exactly what happened to Subnautica Below Zero when the lead story developer quit/got fired and was replaced. They're re-doing the whole story over.


Aaaanyway,  back to Starsector, I personally think system variety is fine as it is now and for one basic reason: exploration is not about guarantees.

Would you still go fishing if you knew for certain that every time you threw your hook in the water, you'd catch a fish?

The same applies to solar systems. Having every map guaranteed to contain at least X takes away much of the thrill of exploration for me. You don't know what is out there, you don't even know if there IS something out there, therefore you keep searching.

Edit: Typos, they're coming out of the freaking text lines!
« Last Edit: October 15, 2020, 09:25:15 AM by Arcagnello »
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Scorpixel

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Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2020, 09:32:26 AM »

Sad to hear Below Zero is suffering development troubles.

Regarding map size, TBH Subnautica's map was too large with too many dead zones where it was never worth going. Starsector also suffers from pointless empty areas (star systems with no planets, for example), though some of that could be filled with new types of content.
Regarding Subnautica's map, it is true that a lot of zones are either uninteresting because of the lack of unique loot(beside decorative wildlife) or simply not worth the risk/travel. But i wouldn't say it was too large, in open worlds you either accept that not every square meter is equal, or you end-up adding a hundred same-ish tertiary quests/rewards that are more of a grind than actual exploration *cough* TESV/BOTW *cough*.

Most of the sector is procedural, there's bound to be both absolute gems and pitiful trash (if only we had a guaranteed stable point per system though, stranded stars and triple-habitable relay-less system are stressful)
Diversified features/reskins would be welcome in the final stages of the release/post-release for sure, as of yet many good mods are already filling that aspect so it's always possible to get new flavours of discovery.

I do wonder though if random logs/anomalies in a totally-not-Stellaris/Endless format could fit in without disturbing the game's pace and balance.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2020, 09:42:39 AM by Scorpixel »
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SafariJohn

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Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2020, 09:52:04 AM »

One of the things that contributed to that was the developer's decision to cram it's own identity politics into it. For example, did you know that the only item in the game that is meant to hurt animals was and still  is the standard knife?

There is nothing else but an itty bitty butter knife in a game with 30 meter long translucent sea snakes that want to eat you because the company, under their own admission, is for animal rights and found it wrong to give you anything else to defend yourself with.

Not for story, not for immersion (pun intended) but simply to have their game reflect their personal agenda. I will not take away any of the game's stellar features but developing games this way overcomplicates the already arduous task of creating something people will play and have a blast with.

I think it was an excellent design decision for creating the awesome "fear the deep" atmosphere Subnautica evokes, regardless of why they did it. Frankly, there were still plenty of ways to fight your way through the game, the Prawn suit being the prime example, so if they were really so against harming animals they did a pretty bad job of preventing it.
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Arcagnello

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Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2020, 10:30:39 AM »

One of the things that contributed to that was the developer's decision to cram it's own identity politics into it. For example, did you know that the only item in the game that is meant to hurt animals was and still  is the standard knife?

There is nothing else but an itty bitty butter knife in a game with 30 meter long translucent sea snakes that want to eat you because the company, under their own admission, is for animal rights and found it wrong to give you anything else to defend yourself with.

Not for story, not for immersion (pun intended) but simply to have their game reflect their personal agenda. I will not take away any of the game's stellar features but developing games this way overcomplicates the already arduous task of creating something people will play and have a blast with.

I think it was an excellent design decision for creating the awesome "fear the deep" atmosphere Subnautica evokes, regardless of why they did it. Frankly, there were still plenty of ways to fight your way through the game, the Prawn suit being the prime example, so if they were really so against harming animals they did a pretty bad job of preventing it.

Well, you can kill every leviathan with the stun rifle and the knife as it is so yeah. Their attempt failed miserably. As for "fearing the deep", you could've just made leviathans tankier and/or immune to the butter knife.

Never try telling people they can't do something in a game, it's never going to work.

I personally would recommend any developer to know the hilariously preventable tale of when PETA opened a Minecraft server. I will probably never experience such joy in vandalizing virtual space as I did back then.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2020, 10:49:35 AM »

There's a million things you can't do in games... The whole point of a game (IMO) is to find a winning course of action within the constraints presented by the game mechanics. As long as the challenge of winning the game is interesting within the context of the mechanics, I don't see any reason why the ability to kill animals is required for a game to be good. I also don't think it makes a game bad, it's just another mechanic that can be included or not included, and has no bearing on the quality of the game.

Tbh, I think games with more constraints on player actions are often more fun because they end up being more challenging. If there is no reason to do things in a game and you just do whatever you want, I find it somewhat boring usually, unless the gameplay itself is super engaging.
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Scorpixel

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Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2020, 02:20:42 PM »

There's a million things you can't do in games... The whole point of a game (IMO) is to find a winning course of action within the constraints presented by the game mechanics. As long as the challenge of winning the game is interesting within the context of the mechanics, I don't see any reason why the ability to kill animals is required for a game to be good. I also don't think it makes a game bad, it's just another mechanic that can be included or not included, and has no bearing on the quality of the game.

Tbh, I think games with more constraints on player actions are often more fun because they end up being more challenging. If there is no reason to do things in a game and you just do whatever you want, I find it somewhat boring usually, unless the gameplay itself is super engaging.
Thank you, the game would've never been as immersive and frightening if we weren't in a position of weakness, and it's only perceived weakness as we can easily perma-freeze any enemy and slice it to death.
A weapon reassure the player in any game with enemies, case in point being Alien Isolation when you first get your hands on the flamethrower.

Thalassophobia and fear of the dark/unknown do most of the work, the sparse reef can be orders of magnitude scarier than the lost river just because of the environment, not knowing what could come for you but thinking you have no chance if it does.
But that's coming from someone who can't play Minecraft or Starsector at night, the intensity of irrational fears do vary between people.
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Arcagnello

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Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2020, 02:38:41 PM »

There's a million things you can't do in games... The whole point of a game (IMO) is to find a winning course of action within the constraints presented by the game mechanics. As long as the challenge of winning the game is interesting within the context of the mechanics, I don't see any reason why the ability to kill animals is required for a game to be good. I also don't think it makes a game bad, it's just another mechanic that can be included or not included, and has no bearing on the quality of the game.

Tbh, I think games with more constraints on player actions are often more fun because they end up being more challenging. If there is no reason to do things in a game and you just do whatever you want, I find it somewhat boring usually, unless the gameplay itself is super engaging.
Thank you, the game would've never been as immersive and frightening if we weren't in a position of weakness, and it's only perceived weakness as we can easily perma-freeze any enemy and slice it to death.
A weapon reassure the player in any game with enemies, case in point being Alien Isolation when you first get your hands on the flamethrower.

Thalassophobia and fear of the dark/unknown do most of the work, the sparse reef can be orders of magnitude scarier than the lost river just because of the environment, not knowing what could come for you but thinking you have no chance if it does.
But that's coming from someone who can't play Minecraft or Starsector at night, the intensity of irrational fears do vary between people.

You know what's worse than forced positions of weakness?

Having a weapon given to you, providing safety, only to find out it barely does anything and is basically a facade of your own hubris. It's a lot more sophisiticated than "hah, you only get this knife, now go out there!".

This exact same thing happens in Alien:Isolation by the way. You get the flamethrower and think it's just going to solve all your issues only to find out that the more you have to use it the more the alien will progressively ignore it up to the point when you may aswell not use it. It's (IMO) a lot more sphisticated and sadistic than just denying you even a false hope of things working out.

Actually, let me just give up one of the best scenes from Fate:Zero where the audience is introduced to "Bluebeard" and the concept of pure despair. (Start at 2:30 or even 3:25 if you're short on time, it loses much of the buildup and context tough). Just beware that it's not for sensible audiences despite being...well...anime and the stereotypes that come with it, namely the "cartoons are for kids" one.


Edit: Okay. Let me actually quote the relevant thing "Bluebeard" says that fits into the point I'm making:

Some forms of terror are fresher than others.
The more intense the fear, the more the emotions die.
Terror, in its truest sense, is not a static state, but a dynamic one.
It is the moment when hope turns into despair.
Did you enjoy that?
The taste of fresh terror and death?

« Last Edit: October 15, 2020, 02:52:35 PM by Arcagnello »
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Arranging holidays in an embrace with the Starsector is priceless.
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Scorpixel

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Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2020, 05:40:35 PM »

There's a million things you can't do in games... The whole point of a game (IMO) is to find a winning course of action within the constraints presented by the game mechanics. As long as the challenge of winning the game is interesting within the context of the mechanics, I don't see any reason why the ability to kill animals is required for a game to be good. I also don't think it makes a game bad, it's just another mechanic that can be included or not included, and has no bearing on the quality of the game.

Tbh, I think games with more constraints on player actions are often more fun because they end up being more challenging. If there is no reason to do things in a game and you just do whatever you want, I find it somewhat boring usually, unless the gameplay itself is super engaging.
Thank you, the game would've never been as immersive and frightening if we weren't in a position of weakness, and it's only perceived weakness as we can easily perma-freeze any enemy and slice it to death.
A weapon reassure the player in any game with enemies, case in point being Alien Isolation when you first get your hands on the flamethrower.

Thalassophobia and fear of the dark/unknown do most of the work, the sparse reef can be orders of magnitude scarier than the lost river just because of the environment, not knowing what could come for you but thinking you have no chance if it does.
But that's coming from someone who can't play Minecraft or Starsector at night, the intensity of irrational fears do vary between people.

You know what's worse than forced positions of weakness?

Having a weapon given to you, providing safety, only to find out it barely does anything and is basically a facade of your own hubris. It's a lot more sophisiticated than "hah, you only get this knife, now go out there!".

This exact same thing happens in Alien:Isolation by the way. You get the flamethrower and think it's just going to solve all your issues only to find out that the more you have to use it the more the alien will progressively ignore it up to the point when you may aswell not use it. It's (IMO) a lot more sphisticated and sadistic than just denying you even a false hope of things working out.

Actually, let me just give up one of the best scenes from Fate:Zero where the audience is introduced to "Bluebeard" and the concept of pure despair. (Start at 2:30 or even 3:25 if you're short on time, it loses much of the buildup and context tough). Just beware that it's not for sensible audiences despite being...well...anime and the stereotypes that come with it, namely the "cartoons are for kids" one.


Edit: Okay. Let me actually quote the relevant thing "Bluebeard" says that fits into the point I'm making:

Some forms of terror are fresher than others.
The more intense the fear, the more the emotions die.
Terror, in its truest sense, is not a static state, but a dynamic one.
It is the moment when hope turns into despair.
Did you enjoy that?
The taste of fresh terror and death?
It seem we've seen the same string of videos talking about the subject in question, indeed terror is a more appropriate term, or even dread in some cases. I do know about Fate and was told that Zero is the most depressing part(had to go through VPN for that link though, blocked in some places).

Glad to see that we are in agreement, cheap horror and jumpscares are only worth reaction videos, creating the environment to place the mind in primal alert is where the work is, followed by luring the player into a false sense of security in order to plunge again.
I will admit that it is where Subnautica fails, as you only grow in confidence over time. True fear disappear in the lost river, nothing is out of sight, everything is well lit 24/7, and the only actual danger is running circles in front of you.

I do wonder what is your opinion on dread, such as "A quiet place" that decided hiding the monster until the last 15 minutes wasn't the point of the movie.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2020, 05:54:38 PM by Scorpixel »
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