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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

Author Topic: Battle Size & Fleet Size  (Read 1428 times)

Seita

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Battle Size & Fleet Size
« on: July 14, 2020, 02:15:12 PM »

I've seen a lot of comments here about late-game capital spam and how it's lore-unfriendly to have 5 paragon in one pirate fleet. With the current system, battle size is functionally just a setting for lower-end machine & player preference. Personally I've enjoyed piloting capitals, but it gets boring the moment I spam them and battle-size is the only limit. I like cinematic and grand war stories, and tall tales like multiple fleet generals assaulting key points in the Sector. Not sure if these have been brought up before but here goes:

1. Introduce maximum fleet size to both player & AI fleets. Similar to the AI fleet tournament rules, the amount of ship in each fleet is limited by fleet logistics skills (based on OP), and a soft cap on how many ship in each class exists in fleets. The heavy patrol generated in game is a valid concept that I'd like to expand this upon. For example to get two or more capitals, there will be a fleet wise CR & peak performance cut. Using maintenance penalty doesn't deter players from storing capitals and cheese it.

2. Higher battle size than maximum fleet size. This will require players to be more careful around patrols and choose their engagement even late-game. Also considering a mercenary board since the current mercenary patrols are quite random.

3. Maximum capitals per faction. It sounds pretty bad at start, but if you think about how supply/maintenance & population counts compare to the sheet amount of capitals that exists in the current Sector. I think amount of Capitals ships should be limited by multiple factors, namely:
  • Market populations. The more population one faction has, the more capital can be had. There can be a population cutoff to aid some factions like TT and SD which has multiple high pop market, but can't compete with Hegemony in terms of fleet power. This can also include player faction, which encourages keeping commission at mid-game if you have one.
  • Global supply production. It's not a contraband, but it should be a limiting factor on how many capitals can simultaneously exist in the Sector. To prevent players from hogging the cap, the stored capitals will became targets of pirates, major factions, and just about anyone. Hostile agents & LP cells might also have special events.

Right now I'm considering problems such as player frustration and the feasibility of manage multiple fleet (like "Follow Me!" order from Nex and using agents), taking any CC and advices.

Also I'm extra virgin to modding but I'll get into it.
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Megas

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Re: Battle Size & Fleet Size
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2020, 03:54:51 PM »

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2. Higher battle size than maximum fleet size. This will require players to be more careful around patrols and choose their engagement even late-game. Also considering a mercenary board since the current mercenary patrols are quite random.
Not really.  That means I can deploy more too and get rid of enemy fleets faster, mitigating PPT, multi-round combat, and otherwise "fights take too long" problems.  However, beyond a certain point, an oversized battle also becomes easier because if the field gets too crowded with enemies, they crash and damage each other.

That said, I probably would not go much beyond 500 because my computer cannot handle huge fights.

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Global supply production. It's not a contraband, but it should be a limiting factor on how many capitals can simultaneously exist in the Sector. To prevent players from hogging the cap, the stored capitals will became targets of pirates, major factions, and just about anyone. Hostile agents & LP cells might also have special events.
They do not touch my loot, especially special loot like Legion14!  If they do, I have yet another reason to destroy the core worlds.  We do not need more reasons to babysit colonies more often or kill the core worlds to stop the annoyance factor.

I suppose as a last resort (if the immortal zombies like pirates take part), store my loot at the abandoned station next to Asharu or one of the others that NPCs leave alone.  The safest place to deposit loot is an abandoned station.

Also, if they can sabotage capitals, why not everything else too, and not just ships, but your storage where you store other valuables?  No reason they cannot hit everything if they bother to steal or destroy your loot.
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Seita

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Re: Battle Size & Fleet Size
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2020, 04:50:18 PM »

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That means I can deploy more too and get rid of enemy fleets faster.
I think what I wanted to see from point 2 was that battle size can compliment multiple fleets on the field. Say, the maximum fleet size is limited to 5/4/3/2/1, and you've deployed 2 capitals from one fleet against 2 capitals from 2 different fleets, the decreased performance from CR hit would probably cost you the fight while the enemy capitals can fight in mint condition. The idea is that the players should be encouraged to engage in multiple fleet combat instead of building one ultimate fleet, more on exactly how it works in the next quote.

This also prevent the annoying situation where the space station deployed is hogging your side's DP.

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If they do, I have yet another reason to destroy the core worlds.
I probably should have clarify my idea in the original post, but all 3 points should be preventable if you give the capitals to the fleets in your factions. I always liked the fact that factions will deploy special fleets to get some important objective, whether is massacring hundreds and thousands, or suiciding to players. Players should be able to do the same, and with intent. The whole idea is that to create persistent fleet in your faction that you can command remotely, while giving them directives like agents in Nexerelin.

Say, if you found 2 XIV legion in an exploration run, but you're limited by the max fleet soft cap. You can create another fleet that is loyal to your faction, appointing an officer as the commander of this other fleet, and use it just like an agent. You can command it to follow you around, invade other worlds on its own, or assign it to babysit your colonies so you can go around doing stuff you like. It is not without limits though, since the amount of capitals you can have in your faction is limited by the amount of high pop market you own. Population is power.

Now back to the first quote. A defensive battle will be a lot easier if players have multiple fleets aiding the station, while attacking the core worlds on your own is going to be near impossible as you'll face multiple capitals. It's a lot more meta strategy than simple paragon spam as you coordinate attacks and defences around your colonies.

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We do not need more reasons to babysit colonies more often or kill the core worlds to stop the annoyance factor.
Also I never said they need a physical presence in your colony as a fleet. In Nex your agent can steal ships remotely without ever risking your own ships. The point of them stealing valuables loot or sabotaging is most likely going to be an option, not mandatory, though if the players can do it, so should AIs.

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The safest place to deposit loot is an abandoned station.
If you want my opinion, those places *should* be the least safe areas.

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Also, if they can sabotage capitals, why not everything else too, and not just ships, but your storage where you store other valuables?  No reason they cannot hit everything if they bother to steal or destroy your loot.
This they can already in Nex, by invading, sabotaging industry, and destroying commodity stocks. In my opinion players should not have immunity, but then again, optional.
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