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Author Topic: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?  (Read 8338 times)

Thaago

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Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
« Reply #45 on: July 23, 2020, 01:36:08 PM »

When I used Gryphons they didn't tend to suicide, or at least I don't remember them doing so. I also don't remember needing any really special builds to make them worthwhile - I just slapped on a whole pile of Harpoons and a Locust for anti fighter/frigate. This was mid/early game I think? Or maybe I hadn't come to appreciate Hurricane's yet? Either way, the ship worked well enough. It wasn't a star performer, but it did consistent damage.
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Null Ganymede

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Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
« Reply #46 on: July 24, 2020, 06:12:04 PM »

I've seen people do a weird pattern formation with their drovers before, but I do wonder what over kinds of tactics might be possible in battle?

Cruiser and capital hammer, frigate and destroyer anvil. (Yes, that's the correct order.) The trick is to assign frigate escorts to your destroyer or elite frigate escort, then flank hard. Enemy fleets focus on your flagship excessively, so just getting behind them turns a bunch of big ships around and lets your main fleet free fire. The frigate escort makes space for you to do it and protects your flank from other frigates.

Otherwise there's a ton of awesome fire support ships that are too fragile on their own, but work amazing as a combat carrier/slow capital escort. Ditto for reckless officers you don't have a good wrecking ball ship with - just put 'em on escort duty around something big or slow.
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Warhydra

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Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
« Reply #47 on: September 28, 2020, 11:46:00 PM »

Gryphons are pretty good, the winning fleet in the last AI tournement had quite a few of them.
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Serenitis

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Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
« Reply #48 on: September 29, 2020, 01:41:35 AM »

Squalls are mostly fine. They could just use either better terminal tracking, or as mentioned, a scattering fire pattern.
As they are, even a capital ship can slide laterally and avoid every single shot in a volley if it drops (or angles) its shield.

Gryphon is an oddball.
It's a missile platform, and as such should be as close to the front as possible to ensure its missiles can make contact with thier targets. (This goes double for unguided weapons.)
Except it doesn't have the mobility to evade threats.
It doesn't have the mobility to get into and out of position quickly enough to "hit and run".
And it doesn't have the flux stats or armour to tank damage.
The only way to give it halfway acceptable mobilty is to use SO + UI, which is expensive. And undermines the ship system, which is about increased deployment time.
It's a ship that emphatically needs to be on the front line to use its weapons effectively, but is entirely incapable of existing there for any length of time.

Even as an artillery platform its not a great option. Gryphon can handle 3x Pilum easily, and flux means nothing in this role. But again it's let down by mobilty, and it's an expensive ship to maintain and deploy.
And most criminal, is that it entirely wastes the potential of it's system, along with most of it's mounts.

Every time I've used a Gryphon, I've been disappointed by it.
Thus:
Spoiler
[close]
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RustyCabbage

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Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
« Reply #49 on: September 29, 2020, 01:17:17 PM »

I dunno about that. The 1200-1400+ range offered by ECCM'd missiles (assuming Sabot Locust) on a Gryphon allow it to keep a standard distance with 800-900+ITU range capital ships. So long as you're using guided missiles (and you really should on a Gryphon), you don't even have to be in the front line if you have a decently tanky frigate/destroyer lineup.

Unstable Injector provides enough mobility for a Gryphon to do its job. Adding SO is downright fanciful.

You might have problems in the late game with capital ship spam, but then you can switch to something like Squall/Hurricane+Harpoons and still be a punishing ship.

In any case, I agree when it comes to Squalls. Without ECCM and EMR it's kind of difficult to get your OP's worth from them, especially against small targets.

shrek_luigi

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Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
« Reply #50 on: September 29, 2020, 02:04:21 PM »

love me some squalls  :-*

in spite of their range, I most often put them on tanky capital-ships that fight at point-blank range/get into the fight quickly with burst-drive/plasma jets/etc, and dunk on other big ships or stations with medium mortars/beeg autocannon/etc. its a lot of shield-pressure for something that doesn't cost flux, has a nice EMP underpinning to it for when their shield goes down.....using them close-up helps overcome a lot of the weapon's flaws too, from both an AI decision-making standpoint & its pretty poor tracking against zippy light cruisers, for example.

right now I have one on my "melee mode" legion (gh) and, between that and hammer pods/overclocked longbows, there is a lot of missile spray goin on
« Last Edit: September 29, 2020, 02:24:54 PM by shrek_luigi »
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SaberCherry

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Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
« Reply #51 on: September 29, 2020, 03:08:45 PM »

I've had decent luck with dual Squalls on ships with twin large missile mounts (such as Atlas Mk 2).  They kind of can't hit a moving target at all usually, because as far as I can tell, the targeting does not take motion into account (let alone acceleration).   But with two of them in tandem and a sufficiently large target, one stream will miss with all of its shots while the other will hit, regardless of which way the target is moving.

I prefer Sabot Pods though; they seem more effective and are far cheaper.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2020, 07:06:08 PM by SaberCherry »
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Retry

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Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
« Reply #52 on: September 29, 2020, 05:43:31 PM »

I'll bet, Sabot Pods are ruthless and one of the best (if not the best) missile type to shove in if you don't know how to use a medium slot.  Tricky projectile to knock out with most PD as far as missiles go due to "activating" a good distance from the target, a big chunk of 2000 shield damage per missile (4000 for a Sabot Pod burst) puts most Destroyers at risk of an overload even at quite low flux levels, and despite being KE damage its shells can really hurt a Frigate with its shields down.  Cruisers and low-end Caps can't exactly scoff at Sabots either.

Even if you're not a Frigate or low end Destroyer and try to armor tank it (either willingly or by force), Sabots aren't toothless; you'll be greeted by a grand total of 2000 EMP damage per sabot, or the equivalent of 5 seconds of trained fire by an Ion Beam.  Squalls do have a small EMP component, but it's not nearly as significant.  In fact, it takes exactly a full Squall salvo to equal the EMP damage that a single Sabot can do.

Basically, Sabots in general (both small and medium size) has a sort of "oh crap!" quality that Squalls don't, in that they can do a ton of heavy-lifting in a very short amount of time.  If you let your guard down against a Sabot-equipped opponent you can go from having a decent-size flux buffer for your shields to an overload in the fraction of a second, which will likely be followed by a bunch of Harpoons thrown your way.  Squalls will not take you by surprise in the same way.  There's no huge burst of front-loaded damage, it's a slow trickle of kinetic damage which, while useful, won't get you either surprise overloads or significant EMP disabling effects.  The fluff description of the Squall being a "terrifying weapon system" isn't really accurate.  They're not toothless, but most ships have effective ways to manage them.

I'll still put Squalls on my large missile mounts sometimes, but that's less due to its efficacy and more because there's no actual Large Sabot missile launchers, and its longer range better compliments the longer range brackets of Capital Ships.  Even then, I'll put the slightly-cheaper Locusts on more often than not, as those feel more versatile versus many targets and they seem to last longer.
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Arcagnello

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Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
« Reply #53 on: October 04, 2020, 05:12:25 PM »

I used Gryphons in my second ever campaign with a very simple setup and they regularly outshone even capitals when it came to damage proved they had adequate support.

Hammer barrage in the heavy mount, sabot pods every other missile mount (and the most efficient PD everywhere else), unstable injector/hardened shields(you could probably also use safety overrides if you felt extra disgusting and cared more about the damage than not incurring in any losses during battle) as modspecs and then shove everything left into flux capacitors.

An aggressive officer (or an aggressive faction doctrine for that matter) will get into close range, apply what probably is the most disgusting mechanic overlap in the whole game wich is firing sabots point blank and having them ejaculate detonate over the enemy's face while still inside your own ship's shield and then will fire the hammer torpedo barrage.

Works real well against [Redacted] and Stations but can and will also more or less obliterate anything close and/or big enough to eat those torpedoes.


Heck I'm even using them right now in my current Kadur Remnant themed campaign with a long range setup to exploit the openings my Immortal fighter squadrons create while engaged with the enemy.

The fact they will basically run out of CR before they empty their missile racks also makes the "ballistic missile" Gryphon one of the best ships to lawnmower hordes of enemy frigades from the other side of the map while they're busy trying to sneak past and behind your allies.


Edit: to actually give some personal opinion that comes anywhere close to what the OP asked, Squalls do indeed work and find a wide application in both player and AI controlled ship setups.

For some reason Most AI capital/ cruiser setups (at least in vanilla) are almost never set up as versatile, mobile point defence platforms with long range, anti shield weapons so the fact you've got an ultra long range shield overloading weapon that 1) can not be stopped 2) effectively kills the ability of the enemy to press onwards 3) opens up for ship-busting action is a huge deal.

You should install it on anything slow that does not do well in close range or on anything with long range weapons/ big enough strike potential to exploit the opening Squalls create, the astral is the best example of a defensive squall, while a Conquest with double squall and double Mjolnir/Hephaestus cannons is the epitome of an offensive squall.


I personally do not use it on either player controlled OR AI setups as the AI tends to just vomit said missiles on the first bloody thing it comes into contact with. Even ships that seemingly look like they were BUILT for squall spam in mind like Conquest/Odyssey do way, way better using Autopulse/Gauss/Heavy AC combined with Hurricanes MIRVs instead.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2020, 05:32:35 PM by Arcagnello »
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ubuntufreakdragon

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Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
« Reply #54 on: October 04, 2020, 07:56:40 PM »

Squalls 2nd stage coul be tracking but with reduced rotation speed (still a kinetic missile, the faster the missile the lower the effective tracking) so it may turn 30° before reaching max range.
Wouldn't be effective against frigates but may hit agile cruisers or non agile destroyers.
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Warnoise

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Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
« Reply #55 on: October 06, 2020, 09:38:24 PM »

In your opinion, what can be done to make Squalls better?

Squalls are insanely good already.

They delete anything smaller than a cruiser and they are good support as an anti-capital shield.

Dual-squal conquests are extremely annoying
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RustyCabbage

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Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
« Reply #56 on: October 06, 2020, 09:55:58 PM »

They delete anything smaller than a cruiser and they are good support as an anti-capital shield.
Do your Squalls magically track like a Harpoon or something? :p

Seems like most others struggle to hit things smaller than a cruiser, let alone delete them.

Modo44

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Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
« Reply #57 on: October 06, 2020, 10:40:28 PM »

Do your Squalls magically track like a Harpoon or something? :p
They track more than enough when they are mounted straight forward, like on the Gryphon. Typically only frigates are fast enough to dodge. Fast frigates can not dodge the dual medium Sabot salvo, though.
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Arcagnello

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Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
« Reply #58 on: October 07, 2020, 03:00:50 AM »

I also have some mods adding additional modpsecs and there's one improving missile speed/HP while hurting their handling, and it's really good on squalls is said ships also has a modspec called "Targeting AI Core" wich also improves target tracking. It actually hits frigades with a 50-70% ratio. It's disgusting.

42 Ordinance points worth of disgusting to set up tough (Targeting AI is worth 30OP and Torpedo Spec is worth 12OP on capitals)


That said, squalls are already really good at hitting things. I'd actually nerf them instead if I had to be completely honest with you, along with the Sabot activation distance from the target. They're the prime "AI ravager" you have in the game (besides carriers) as even an AI controlled ship of yours can reliably take down a ship a third, two thirds or even double its own Fleet Points given it's got sabots/squalls and weaponry to follow up on the almost guaranteed overload they're going to cause.
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Warnoise

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Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
« Reply #59 on: October 07, 2020, 10:24:09 AM »

I also have some mods adding additional modpsecs and there's one improving missile speed/HP while hurting their handling, and it's really good on squalls is said ships also has a modspec called "Targeting AI Core" wich also improves target tracking. It actually hits frigades with a 50-70% ratio. It's disgusting.

42 Ordinance points worth of disgusting to set up tough (Targeting AI is worth 30OP and Torpedo Spec is worth 12OP on capitals)


That said, squalls are already really good at hitting things. I'd actually nerf them instead if I had to be completely honest with you, along with the Sabot activation distance from the target. They're the prime "AI ravager" you have in the game (besides carriers) as even an AI controlled ship of yours can reliably take down a ship a third, two thirds or even double its own Fleet Points given it's got sabots/squalls and weaponry to follow up on the almost guaranteed overload they're going to cause.

This. The only thing I'd nerf the squall is its damage on armor and hull. It is already amazing against shields, but currently it hits pretty hard hulls too (considering its salvo).

Dealing 5 pirate atlas with 2 squalls is a nightmare since you can't even approach them (unless you have a tanky capital like the onslaught)

Next comes the sabot, for me it is the most op missile in the game. The amount of dmg it does is absurd considering it outranges most of the do and it hits instantly. fighting a [Redacted] capital that has tachyon+sabot is a nightmare
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