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Author Topic: [0.95.1a] Arma Armatura v2.2.2 - Mechs/Fighters, wings with personality  (Read 378286 times)

hydremajor

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Re: [0.95a] Arma Armatura 1.5.2e (9/16/2021)
« Reply #540 on: December 30, 2021, 08:04:41 AM »

You lose a great deal of customizability with this method. That's why I, and I'd imagine many others, would not be in favor of it.

Yeah but you're not the one making the mod, this is a single guy's passion project, while I'm not saying your suggestion is without merits it should instead be kept for a entirely different mod that provides a framework for modders to pick up and use in their own projects to make their own mechs.

Think MagicLib.

besides the fact that each detail, regardless of scale, multiplies difficulties and chances of code going to crap significantly
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sphr

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Re: [0.95a] Arma Armatura 1.5.2e (9/16/2021)
« Reply #541 on: December 30, 2021, 08:32:03 AM »

re: earlier post on customization system

Let's all calm down a little as things may  be getting heated up unnecessarily.

Think there may be misunderstanding regarding my previous post.

When I say it is inspired by Aleste(S) in the mod atm, I don't just mean the "idea" of changing weapons.

I am actually referring to the actual system it is implemented in, right now, in the mod.

What I am suggesting is simply a refactoring of what is already implemented. which is why I posted it, with enough technical details to illustrate how it can be changed, to the people who can understand it, so that we can see if the idea has problems or is indeed feasible.

iow, what I was suggesting may not really be more complex than what is already in the mod atm.
In fact, there is a chance that the changes I suggest will reduce future development efforts of the mod, which is why I thought of bringing it up for discussion.

Rest assured, that I am a firm believer that wrt the mod, what features to implement, when to implement, how it is implemented should be fully up to mod dev to decide. 
I do not presume I can understand him enough to make decisions on his behalf, and there is really no hard feelings even if it is rejected.

And I speak the truth.
(Because if I really want something that bad/urgent in my game, I'll probably just mod it in myself.  I am already running my own "custom mod" which I change as I play)

lol. I think the mod dev may really be under-appreciated, as if my earlier suggestion post was misunderstood as being "unreasonable", then the mod dev has DEFINITELY already put in really "unreasonable" amount of efforts into the mod already.

Please give the guy a pat on the back!
cheers :)
---
EDIT: Upon closer inspection, there could be an issue where I misunderstood how the game-engine processes the refit specifications, so I've added a backup method to the original suggestion post (but the examples are not updated).  This method may actually be more robust, as it will should a map of all interfaces and their compatible plugins in a global registry stored using in-game persistent data store, at the expense of a few lines more of code in each hullmod class that uses it (which may be hidden if a proper base-class is added though)
« Last Edit: December 30, 2021, 06:31:16 PM by sphr »
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6chad.noirlee9

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Re: [0.95a] Arma Armatura 1.5.2e (9/16/2021)
« Reply #542 on: December 31, 2021, 12:38:11 PM »

Arma is great nuff said
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edit: edit: maybe were just falling with style LOL.  make a bubble, make the space in front of it smaller and just fall forward

hydremajor

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Re: [0.95a] Arma Armatura 1.5.2e (9/16/2021)
« Reply #543 on: January 04, 2022, 04:12:29 AM »

So what do y'all think low tech mechs should look like ?

I'm thinking something along the lines of a Zaku from gundam myself

in the right hand we'd have the main weapons so
a machinegun thats a bit on the weak side but full auto and at 700 range
a howitzer rifle, slow firing but long range and hefty HE punch on a fast projectile
a bazooka, short range at 500 but packs a hefty burst of HE damage with a 5 second or so seconds cooldown

In the left you'd have sub-weapons,
a Heat hawk kinda thing, behaves like a energy sword but HE
a hand grenade, think devastator shell but short range, for PD or for Torpedo duties
a knuckle shield, another melee option, this time kinetic damage instead of HE or energy


would that be a low tech unit or not ?
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Space_Lettuce_OG

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Re: [0.95a] Arma Armatura 1.5.2e (9/16/2021)
« Reply #544 on: January 04, 2022, 09:29:36 AM »

So what do y'all think low tech mechs should look like ?

I'm thinking something along the lines of a Zaku from gundam myself

in the right hand we'd have the main weapons so
a machinegun thats a bit on the weak side but full auto and at 700 range
a howitzer rifle, slow firing but long range and hefty HE punch on a fast projectile
a bazooka, short range at 500 but packs a hefty burst of HE damage with a 5 second or so seconds cooldown

In the left you'd have sub-weapons,
a Heat hawk kinda thing, behaves like a energy sword but HE
a hand grenade, think devastator shell but short range, for PD or for Torpedo duties
a knuckle shield, another melee option, this time kinetic damage instead of HE or energy


would that be a low tech unit or not ?

I'm thinking a pretty straight forward approach, unless ya got something interesting and "different" in mind....


For cheap(emphasis on cheap both in cost and OP/DP depending on if it's a fighter or a frigate-mech) low-tech mechs:
- 2 handed machine gun(or similar). Low damage, high rate of fire. Good versus shields, worthless versus even light armor.
- 1-2 limited use shoulder mounted missiles for hitting armor.

It'll do enough to fend off frigates by itself, but with a few they could take out a frig.
It won't do much to a destroyer and larger, but en mass, it could make them back off before a bigger ship swoops in and finishes them off while they're weak.
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hydremajor

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Re: [0.95a] Arma Armatura 1.5.2e (9/16/2021)
« Reply #545 on: January 04, 2022, 12:34:38 PM »

For cheap(emphasis on cheap both in cost and OP/DP depending on if it's a fighter or a frigate-mech) low-tech mechs:
- 2 handed machine gun(or similar). Low damage, high rate of fire. Good versus shields, worthless versus even light armor.
- 1-2 limited use shoulder mounted missiles for hitting armor.

That sounds a awful lot like the Garegga ?
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Space_Lettuce_OG

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Re: [0.95a] Arma Armatura 1.5.2e (9/16/2021)
« Reply #546 on: January 04, 2022, 07:05:25 PM »

For cheap(emphasis on cheap both in cost and OP/DP depending on if it's a fighter or a frigate-mech) low-tech mechs:
- 2 handed machine gun(or similar). Low damage, high rate of fire. Good versus shields, worthless versus even light armor.
- 1-2 limited use shoulder mounted missiles for hitting armor.

That sounds a awful lot like the Garegga ?


I don't know what kinda Garegga  you're using, but the Garegga  is pretty powerful, probably the most powerful of all the mechs currently in the mod. It has some pretty insane DPS.
Not to mention it's way more expensive than I am thinking about.
Cheap low-tech mechs should be for fodder and swarming. They should also probably have a special mod for having a very high chance of recovery when destroyed, cuz they're gonna get destroyed a lot.

I was thinking about it some more, and it would be nice to have some options to specialize each of these little low-tech mechs, so they all have a specialty.
So, you can group them up and send them on specialized tasks/commands. Kinda like a fighter wing that you have more control over.
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sphr

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Re: [0.95a] Arma Armatura 1.5.2e (9/16/2021)
« Reply #547 on: January 04, 2022, 10:43:11 PM »

re: low tech mech

imo (rem, just my opinions), low tech mechs shouldn't limit weapons directly.
I am going by the "immersive" route, so instead of starting with game meta, I start with the imagined constructions:

- lower grade power generator/reactor: 
  + lowered flux capacity
  + lowered dissipation
- lower grade engines:
  + lowered top speed
  + lowered maneuverability
- reduced/lower grade armor:
  + lowered armor
- reduced/lower grade construction/materials:
  + lowered hull
- lower grade sub-systems:
  + shield/phase have higher upkeep and worse damage-to-flux ratio
  + inbuilt systems are worse versions of the normal ones
- (for fighters) shorter-range/dependent on carrier systems: lowered operation range (even so low that it can only be used for carrier defense)

The following are adjustments, meant to cover other minor details not covered by the major ones above:
- overall simpler management: lowered DP cost
- overall cheaper maintenance: lowered monthly supplies cost and cost to repair
- overall simpler maintenance: faster CR recovery, if fighters, costs less carrier fighter replacement resources
- overall lower space/infrastructure efficiency, resulting in less space for internal systems:  reduction in OP
- overall adjustment: Burst-use variant: for variants that have overall closer to norm performance relative to costs/downsides: but have reduced max CR/worse CR loss/efficiency/shorter PPT
- overall adjustment: Endurance-use variant: for variants that have overall much worse than norm relative to costs: but have better CR loss/efficiency/longer PPT


iow, the weapons that are feasible is basically limited by the other stats.  Try to install an advanced weapon with bad flux/damage efficiency and the cheap mecha may not function efficiently at all.  Thus, the weapons will be naturally limited by -- practicality.

Creating low-tech variants of existing mechs
In addition to creating new mechs with the low-cost/tech, perhaps "adjustments" (e.g. implemented by hull mods) can be added to make the normal versions more "low-cost", with corresponding reduction in capability.  This may help to increase the final number of options/variants that a player have access to.  Though I would suggest that those "built-for-low-tech/cost" versions (i.e. the cost/modifiers etc are specified in base files) have better performance/cost efficiency than those which are simply fitted with "low-tech/cost" mods (cost/modifiers adjusted dynamically), as it seems more immersive.


A "ruler" to measure low cost/tech
Perhaps there should be some way to model this performance/cost ratio so that all adjustments can be easily balanced.
e.g. difference between just a low-tech variant vs a low-cost variant, assuming tech levels improves efficiency overall.

Assuming similar performance between two ships:
- higher-tech variant should have better performance/cost index

Interestingly, this can model advanced prototypes vs production models as well:

Assume similar tech levels:
- advanced (or prototype/experimental) models may have higher-than-norm performance, but it may have much worse performance/cost index than normal.
- production(norm) models are those which are most optimized wrt to overall performance vs costs.
- low-cost models are those which performs less than production. but have better performance/cost index.

Only thing is: how do we come up with ways to measure the overall performance and cost of a particular model?


« Last Edit: January 04, 2022, 10:45:42 PM by sphr »
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hydremajor

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Re: [0.95a] Arma Armatura 1.5.2e (9/16/2021)
« Reply #548 on: January 05, 2022, 01:47:05 AM »

@sphr

I'd say we look at the current lineup of mechs and use each individual Stats

from there each mech's highest stats in its tonnage are used as the maximum
and each mech lowest stat in its tonnage  are used as the minimum

Don't go comparing the Aleste and the Garegga as their playstyles and customisation options are vastly different

though for that to work we'd need to set standards for each tonnage brackets
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sphr

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Re: [0.95a] Arma Armatura 1.5.2e (9/16/2021)
« Reply #549 on: January 05, 2022, 12:29:26 PM »

yeah.. for my previous post, I was assuming strikecrafts only (because my own interest is mostly there).
totally agree that comparing ships of different classes isn't meaningful.
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Null Ganymede

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Re: [0.95a] Arma Armatura 1.5.2e (9/16/2021)
« Reply #550 on: January 07, 2022, 07:42:17 AM »

This is the coolest mod.

I bought an Aleste (S) on a whim and tried putting two laser swords on it. Huge respect for the amount of polish you've put in. The animations, the well-polished descriptions, the fact that it's a clever movement mechanic that dances with the ship system movement mechanic, the KSBD reference as a cherry on top... Amazing. And that's just one weapon on one cataphract, everything is so high effort.
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shoi

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Re: [0.95a] Arma Armatura 1.5.2e (9/16/2021)
« Reply #551 on: January 10, 2022, 09:59:14 PM »

(Small) update!


New Valken-EX, cameoing with a perfectly normal Flagellator from Iron Shell and prv accessories

I revised the aesthetic of the Valken ex to make my life a bit easier. IMO, it's  a pretty big improvement.

Something minor I toyed around with while messing with the whole legs thing, was also programatically adjusting some of the mech decos color based on the faction fielding them. Down below is what it'd look like while you had a hegemony commission, for example.



If I end up keeping this, it'll probably be EX exclusive type of deal, but idk yet. There are some rather ... vibrant faction colors in use out there that stand out ALOT 

----
re: the talk about adding additional mechanics and other things, it could be interesting but it might all be a bit too in depth. Right now the main focus is finishing this content update, then afterwards i'll consider those changes :).
The Jun Mk.III weapon is a work of art!

thanks. Freespace 2 beams are a big inspo for that weapon :)

This is the coolest mod.

I bought an Aleste (S) on a whim and tried putting two laser swords on it. Huge respect for the amount of polish you've put in. The animations, the well-polished descriptions, the fact that it's a clever movement mechanic that dances with the ship system movement mechanic, the KSBD reference as a cherry on top... Amazing. And that's just one weapon on one cataphract, everything is so high effort.

Thanks :)
« Last Edit: January 10, 2022, 10:22:53 PM by shoi »
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Space_Lettuce_OG

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Re: [0.95a] Arma Armatura 1.5.2e (9/16/2021)
« Reply #552 on: January 11, 2022, 02:41:19 AM »

Looks good!

Don't worry/stress about adding in any of the stuff we've been brainstorming about. We're just "talking shop".

That being said, I recall you discussing making a guide on using your framework for adding in mechs. Maybe some folks can make some add-ons for the Arma mod, and take some work load off your shoulders.
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hydremajor

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Re: [0.95a] Arma Armatura 1.5.2e (9/16/2021)
« Reply #553 on: January 11, 2022, 08:42:25 AM »

so any idea when the next patch might be coming ?

cuz I can't help but feel like someone's gonna bring up the "Soon™" memes
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OperaWolf

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Re: [0.95a] Arma Armatura 1.5.2e (9/16/2021)
« Reply #554 on: January 11, 2022, 12:44:34 PM »

Really love this mod. Some stuff I enjoy about it:

The Garegga and the...Trihander? The energy Garegga. Anyway, they're both maybe too strong, but I love using them anyway. It's a lot of fun watching them dart around ripping things apart.
Setting up the "command" cataphracts with their custom perk and single flight deck to make a squad of mecha fighters was a fantastic idea. Great creativity there.
I really like the designs. I saw the images and pretty much had to run the mod. They remind me of the Gears from Heavy Gear, and I'm completely okay with that.
It's weirdly fun to have your officers in them. For some reason it feels more...interesting? Personal? than just having them command a starship.

Thanks a lot for putting in all this work. I have a hard time using anything other than your mecha in my Frigate lineup.
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