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Author Topic: [0.95.1a] Starship Legends 1.5.6 - Extra flavor for ships, crew, and NPCs  (Read 410890 times)

Sundog

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Re: [0.95.1a] Starship Legends 1.5.6 - Extra flavor for ships, crew, and NPCs
« Reply #810 on: January 16, 2022, 06:39:44 AM »

That's correct. The old default value for that setting used to be 2.0, so that should be a good place to start. You might also want to increase "bonusChanceForCivilianShips." The reason I disabled trait gains for civilian ships was because so many people were complaining about the 50% chance to get negative traits.

lyravega

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Re: [0.95.1a] Starship Legends 1.5.6 - Extra flavor for ships, crew, and NPCs
« Reply #811 on: January 16, 2022, 09:14:16 AM »

That's correct. The old default value for that setting used to be 2.0, so that should be a good place to start. You might also want to increase "bonusChanceForCivilianShips." The reason I disabled trait gains for civilian ships was because so many people were complaining about the 50% chance to get negative traits.
If it bothers me, I guess I'll alter the mentioned .csv files for the logistic ships, and make logistics related stuff only appear on logistic ships so it'll still add some flavour =) Thank you for the reply!

By the way, I'm running with a small fleet, and small ship losses happen all the time, sometimes I also lose my capital but still manage to win the battle. Small support ships dedicated to PD or harassment, or long-range soft-flux / EMP ships that don't really deal good amount of damage seems to accumulate all the bad stuff, with the way I play. Is it possible to include shield or EMP damage somehow? If not, can you recommend an ideal CR calculation setting that clamps the ranges a little bit for a pyrrhic victory, or suggest another setting that I might have overlooked?

Aside from that, I'm looking at the source, and I see this function:
Code
static void calculateBattleRatings(float difficulty)
I assume this bit is where we alter CR calculation from the settings file. "battleDifficultyMult" is set to 0.0 by default, so battle difficulty is not considered at all. I was planning to alter the code to help support ships to a degree, mainly negating a good portion of the damage taken through the battle difficulty itself somehow. May I alter these for personal use?

And lastly, two settings that I don't understand. "bonusChanceForCivilianShips"; I assume this is the 50% chance for civilian ships to get negative traits that you mentioned, correct? Setting this to 0.75 as an alternative for example, would it make civilian ships get the good stuff 75% of the time? "useRatingFromLastBattleAsBasisForBonusChance"; this one I have no idea though. Does this mean a very bad ship with extremely low ratings will never have a chance to redeem itself or something like that?

Sorry for bombarding you with questions :)
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Sundog

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Re: [0.95.1a] Starship Legends 1.5.6 - Extra flavor for ships, crew, and NPCs
« Reply #812 on: January 16, 2022, 10:34:48 AM »

Is it possible to include shield or EMP damage somehow? If not, can you recommend an ideal CR calculation setting that clamps the ranges a little bit for a pyrrhic victory, or suggest another setting that I might have overlooked?
It's not possible to include non-hull damage, but you could increase the "supportMult" setting. It is also based on hull damage, but it evenly distributes rating between all of your ships, regardless of how much damage they did individually. You might want to reduce "damageDealtMult" to compensate.

Aside from that, I'm looking at the source, and I see this function:
Code
static void calculateBattleRatings(float difficulty)
I assume this bit is where we alter CR calculation from the settings file. "battleDifficultyMult" is set to 0.0 by default, so battle difficulty is not considered at all. I was planning to alter the code to help support ships to a degree, mainly negating a good portion of the damage taken through the battle difficulty itself somehow. May I alter these for personal use?
Of course. Feel free to share your edits as well, if you like.

And lastly, two settings that I don't understand. "bonusChanceForCivilianShips"; I assume this is the 50% chance for civilian ships to get negative traits that you mentioned, correct? Setting this to 0.75 as an alternative for example, would it make civilian ships get the good stuff 75% of the time?
That's exactly right.

"useRatingFromLastBattleAsBasisForBonusChance"; this one I have no idea though. Does this mean a very bad ship with extremely low ratings will never have a chance to redeem itself or something like that?
It's basically an old legacy setting. It makes it so that the only combat rating that's considered when choosing new traits is the one from the most recent battle, instead of the combined total rating.

Sorry for bombarding you with questions :)
No worries! I've found that questions are one of the most useful forms of feedback. Helps me figure out what's too unclear or confusing.

lyravega

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Re: [0.95.1a] Starship Legends 1.5.6 - Extra flavor for ships, crew, and NPCs
« Reply #813 on: January 16, 2022, 07:33:10 PM »

Is it possible to include shield or EMP damage somehow? If not, can you recommend an ideal CR calculation setting that clamps the ranges a little bit for a pyrrhic victory, or suggest another setting that I might have overlooked?
It's not possible to include non-hull damage, but you could increase the "supportMult" setting. It is also based on hull damage, but it evenly distributes rating between all of your ships, regardless of how much damage they did individually. You might want to reduce "damageDealtMult" to compensate.

Thanks! I was wondering if it was possible since the battle report mods keeps track of these as well. Though, in theory, you can deal infinite amounts of shield and EMP damage, so keeping track of it might screw up with the calculations on the long run anyway.

"useRatingFromLastBattleAsBasisForBonusChance"; this one I have no idea though. Does this mean a very bad ship with extremely low ratings will never have a chance to redeem itself or something like that?
It's basically an old legacy setting. It makes it so that the only combat rating that's considered when choosing new traits is the one from the most recent battle, instead of the combined total rating.
Ahh, I see. If I'm not mistaken, the CR of a ship essentially means how many of the traits will be positive, correct? I believe the OP said something like that. If this setting is turned on, it'll basically override that behaviour in other words, correct?

By the way, after a battle, is it normal for a ship to gain a negative trait with 0 hull damage taken? 2 battles ago, I gained a positive trait. The next battle, I neither gained nor lost any CR, yet one of my positive traits got replaced with a negative one. Am I correct to assume that only one trait can be gained / replaced per battle, and in my case as on the first battle granted the ship a new trait, the next battle replaced a positive with negative due to its CR; trying to come to the balance?

Aside from that, I'm looking at the source, and I see this function: *** I assume this bit is where we alter CR calculation from the settings file. "battleDifficultyMult" is set to 0.0 by default, so battle difficulty is not considered at all. I was planning to alter the code to help support ships to a degree, mainly negating a good portion of the damage taken through the battle difficulty itself somehow. May I alter these for personal use?
Of course. Feel free to share your edits as well, if you like.
Will do! I will try to include battle difficulty without messing up with the default CR calculation ranges you've set up; "-0.35" to "0.75". Are these percentages? Back to the topic, "supportMult" feels like "battleDifficultyMult" if I'm not mistaken, assuming you destroy every single enemy and not allowing any to retreat, is that correct? I'm asking this to avoid double-dipping when altering the code.

I've recently engaged [REDACTED] and lost one of my capitals, 2 of my frigates, and my last capital won the battle with 1% hull remaning (I did not cheat I swear :D). Everyone lost like 7-9% CR, however these [REDACTED] ships are extremely powerful for their FP value, need to figure out something for that separately I think.

Anyway, thanks for all the answers and of course, for the mod again!
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Sundog

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Re: [0.95.1a] Starship Legends 1.5.6 - Extra flavor for ships, crew, and NPCs
« Reply #814 on: January 16, 2022, 09:55:03 PM »

Thanks! I was wondering if it was possible since the battle report mods keeps track of these as well. Though, in theory, you can deal infinite amounts of shield and EMP damage, so keeping track of it might screw up with the calculations on the long run anyway.
It's certainly possible to track types of damage other than hull damage from a technical standpoint. However, when I was a tween I played a game called Tactics: Ogre, a tactics rpg similar to final fantasy tactics. It was a pretty neat game, with some interesting features. For example:
  • You could forge special swords by sacrificing one of your characters, imbuing the weapon with that character's soul. The power and attributes of the weapon were derived from the character's level and traits.
  • You could set up training sessions, pitting your characters against each other to level them up until either side was defeated.
  • You could heal during combat, including training sessions.
  • You could set your characters to act automatically during combat.
You might see where this is going. Naturally, I set up a training session between two characters that would last forever due to low damage and high healing on both sides, automatically. Then I left the game running overnight. Then I turned both characters into absurdly overpowered weapons that trivialized the rest of the game. So that's why only hull damage is counted.

Ahh, I see. If I'm not mistaken, the CR of a ship essentially means how many of the traits will be positive, correct? I believe the OP said something like that. If this setting is turned on, it'll basically override that behaviour in other words, correct?
Correct.

By the way, after a battle, is it normal for a ship to gain a negative trait with 0 hull damage taken? 2 battles ago, I gained a positive trait. The next battle, I neither gained nor lost any CR, yet one of my positive traits got replaced with a negative one. Am I correct to assume that only one trait can be gained / replaced per battle, and in my case as on the first battle granted the ship a new trait, the next battle replaced a positive with negative due to its CR; trying to come to the balance?
Traits don't get replaced by other traits. After battle a ship may gain a trait, lose a trait, or have two traits switch places. I think what happened in this case is that a neg trait changed places with a pos one, which is typically how traits adjust to match the ship's rating.

I will try to include battle difficulty without messing up with the default CR calculation ranges you've set up; "-0.35" to "0.75". Are these percentages?
It's not important that those totals add up to anything in particular. They're just multipliers for how much different things affect combat rating.

Back to the topic, "supportMult" feels like "battleDifficultyMult" if I'm not mistaken, assuming you destroy every single enemy and not allowing any to retreat, is that correct? I'm asking this to avoid double-dipping when altering the code.
Yeah, they're very similar. supportMult is basically the newer version of battleDifficultyMult. I would suggest only using one or the other.

I've recently engaged [REDACTED] and lost one of my capitals, 2 of my frigates, and my last capital won the battle with 1% hull remaning (I did not cheat I swear :D). Everyone lost like 7-9% CR, however these [REDACTED] ships are extremely powerful for their FP value, need to figure out something for that separately I think.
Heh, yup. It used to be even worse. The strength of remnant ships is actually calculated differently than other ships to bring them more in line.

Anyway, thanks for all the answers and of course, for the mod again!
;D

lyravega

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Re: [0.95.1a] Starship Legends 1.5.6 - Extra flavor for ships, crew, and NPCs
« Reply #815 on: January 16, 2022, 10:26:31 PM »

Thanks! I was wondering if it was possible since the battle report mods keeps track of these as well. Though, in theory, you can deal infinite amounts of shield and EMP damage, so keeping track of it might screw up with the calculations on the long run anyway.
It's certainly possible to track types of damage other than hull damage from a technical standpoint. However, when I was a tween I played a game called Tactics: Ogre, a tactics rpg similar to final fantasy tactics. It was a pretty neat game, with some interesting features. For example:
  • You could forge special swords by sacrificing one of your characters, imbuing the weapon with that character's soul. The power and attributes of the weapon were derived from the character's level and traits.
  • You could set up training sessions, pitting your characters against each other to level them up until either side was defeated.
  • You could heal during combat, including training sessions.
  • You could set your characters to act automatically during combat.
You might see where this is going. Naturally, I set up a training session between two characters that would last forever due to low damage and high healing on both sides, automatically. Then I left the game running overnight. Then I turned both characters into absurdly overpowered weapons that trivialized the rest of the game. So that's why only hull damage is counted.
Last game I did something similar was Kenshi. Though I usually set the game speed to absurd levels through Cheat Engine to avoid leaving the computer on overnight :D

I will try to include battle difficulty without messing up with the default CR calculation ranges you've set up; "-0.35" to "0.75". Are these percentages?
It's not important that those totals add up to anything in particular. They're just multipliers for how much different things affect combat rating.
It's not important, but as far as balance goes, you set those numbers up in that way for a reason. Don't want to upset the intended mod balance, so to speak :) For enemy fleets though, I set the maximum trait numbers to a higher level. Do the negative traits for enemy fleets also get multiplied by the "fleetTraitEffectMult"?

I've recently engaged [REDACTED] and lost one of my capitals, 2 of my frigates, and my last capital won the battle with 1% hull remaning (I did not cheat I swear :D). Everyone lost like 7-9% CR, however these [REDACTED] ships are extremely powerful for their FP value, need to figure out something for that separately I think.
Heh, yup. It used to be even worse. The strength of remnant ships is actually calculated differently than other ships to bring them more in line.
What about the other [REDACTED]?
Spoiler
Omega things
[close]
? I should check the source files a bit more when I get back home :)
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Sundog

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Re: [0.95.1a] Starship Legends 1.5.6 - Extra flavor for ships, crew, and NPCs
« Reply #816 on: January 16, 2022, 11:04:29 PM »

Do the negative traits for enemy fleets also get multiplied by the "fleetTraitEffectMult"?
[snip]
What about the other [REDACTED]?
Yes and yes

Zuthal

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Re: [0.95.1a] Starship Legends 1.5.6 - Extra flavor for ships, crew, and NPCs
« Reply #817 on: January 21, 2022, 04:18:04 PM »

With the intended 2.0.0 changes, why are the ammo-related traits restricted to ships with energy and missile mounts? Even in vanilla, there is now an ammo-using ballistic weapon in the Thumper, and lots of mods also add ammo-using ballistic weapons.
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Sundog

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Re: [0.95.1a] Starship Legends 1.5.6 - Extra flavor for ships, crew, and NPCs
« Reply #818 on: January 21, 2022, 09:14:31 PM »

I just don't think Thumper (and thermal pulse cannon maybe?) are enough to justify such traits. And I don't want to rely on people having mods with certain content in order for this mod to work properly. I'll lift the restriction if there are ever enough vanilla ballistic weapons that rely on ammo.

Zuthal

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I just don't think Thumper (and thermal pulse cannon maybe?) are enough to justify such traits. And I don't want to rely on people having mods with certain content in order for this mod to work properly. I'll lift the restriction if there are ever enough vanilla ballistic weapons that rely on ammo.

That does make sense, yeah.

Pretty sure TPCs are internally classified as energy weapons. And there are, if I didn't miscount... 10 modular weapons that go into energy slots in vanilla that use ammo.

As a compromise, would it be possible to make that restriction adjustable via a config setting, so that people who have mods that add lots of ammo-using ballistic weapons can turn it off for themselves?
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